Semi-auto 7.62 recommendations?

[BullfrogKen]

Originally Posted by H2O Man

Clearing houses? Don't fool yourself into thinking this thread is about clearing houses.


My choice for a "combat rifle" is the semi-auto 7.62mm MK14.

So, is your assertion the rifle is great for combat action, so long as that combat action doesn't include house clearing?

Originally Posted by H2O MAN

John, it is my understanding that the members of THR are free to express their thoughts and opinions regarding their individual choices and recommendations regardless of military service.

Sure, right up until the point some fellow who's never served becomes obnoxiously repetitive over his choice about what makes the best combat arm for those of us who have.

Originally Posted by H2O Man

The most vocal of you don't have the same level of knowledge and expertise that I have with the modernized and enhanced M14.

OK. How has that knowledge and expertise been gained? Through experience?

Please list it. In its totality.

How many rounds do you have downrange through it? How many years have you spent developing it? Serving as an armorer? As a hobbyist? I'd like to know, since your assertions right now revolves around your studies and experiences that the M-14 and all it's "re-inventions" makes a better service rifle.

While you're at it, discuss how the M-16 and it's variants suck, and how you came to know this through the same experiences in its development, or as an armorer, or as a hobbyist.


Because, you see, people who have served in an infantry unit resent the hell out of a man who has never even worn a uniform, let alone humped a piece of equipment in an infantry unit, tell us what's the best tool we ought to be using in our jobs.

[H2O MAN]

frayluisfan
How did you get used to the weight?

I can't speak for others, but my line of work has me lifting, holding
and moving items that weigh from 50 lbs. to about 300 lbs.

My M14s feel rather light by comparison.

[Justin]

I don't know about your 3gun thing, but why do you see a good number of M14s in like configurations being used by competitors on 2-way ranges?

Whoa, there, hoss. No need to get all defensive. I just asked a simple question. If the configuration you like offers so many advantages under so many circumstances, you'd think that rifles in your preferred setup would make a showing among Heavy Metal-class competitors.

As to it's worthiness as a combat weapon, as I stated previously in this thread that I have no military or combat experience, and that it would be disingenuous of me to make claims about what does or does not work for military applications.

[H2O MAN]

Justin, my guess is the two major factors are cost and weight.
I would think that most participants are young and have little if any experience with the Garand or M14.

And I make no claims about what does or does not work for military applications.

[BullfrogKen]

Originally Posted by H2O MAN

And I make no claims about what does or does not work for military applications.

Really?


What's "My choice for a "combat rifle" is the semi-auto 7.62mm MK14." supposed to mean then? Describe where one would use a combat rifle in combat outside of military, or a pseudo-military action.


Or "I don't know about your 3gun thing, but why do you see a good number of M14s in like configurations being used by competitors on 2-way ranges? ", if it's not to suggest that while the weapon system might not be suitable for 3-gun matches, it's quite suitable for military applications?

[Justin]

Justin, my guess is the two major factors are cost and weight.

People who shoot heavy metal division are not nearly as concerned with these issues as you'd like to think.

[GunTech]

The way most three gun matches are set up these days, you have to have an AR. It's almost a question of the course being built to the rifle.

That being said, we have 'he man' 3 gun, which is 45 pistol, 308 rifle and shotgun. M1A is the rifle of choice for this variant, though the AR-10s are showing up more and more.

Of course in a match you aren't under field conditions, with people shooting at you. If we added mud, rain, sand and the like, with no alibis, you'd probably see a lot more AKs.

Personally, I don't care for a lot of the M1A mods, and I've tried most of them. You end up with a heavier rifle. I've tried the Sage and JAE stocks and I'm not sure what you gain is worth the weight except in limited situations.

The M14/M1A is really a compromise rifle. It's not the most accurate, durable, reliable. But it is pretty good at just about everything. Sure, you can hit a target at 500 meters with an 5.56 AR, but in reality is it going to do much to a living target?

The AR type rifles now dominate service rifle due to their superior accuracy - but the target is only paper.

As already mentioned, when you have to shoot through foliage or light cover, 7.62 beats 5.56.

3 gun is a game that doesn't necessarily reflect reality. How many people carry IPSC comp guns for SD?

Anyway, I hope we can keep things civil and answer the OPs questions.

[GunTech]

BTW, just for the record:

[BullfrogKen]

Which proves what, GunTech?

[rbernie]

It proves that folk are capable of recirculating over and over, in every thread on the topic here on THR for the last five years, the same fuzzy captionless and contextless picture of seven M14s in use in a range session - all presumably in the hopes that it proves that Guys Who Wear Green actually really do use the M14.

<sigh>

If I post pictures from the sandbox of guys using PSLs, does that help this dialog at all?

Yeah, I didn't think so either.

[blindhari]

Wah Hoo, this is quite a thread with more than a few people sounding like they want to step out into the alley to settle difference of opinion. I was a qualified Army Infantry armorer (m1/m14/ 03 Springfield/m16) and shot on three rifle teams (1st Army/#rd Army/US Army Europe) while maintaing weapons for both unit and match. That said the original thresd was for a SHTF recomendation for .308 and semi automatic. Gun Genie lists over 50 variants at 5pm moutain time today that fall into this group. My personal opinion is that I have no need or future use for a main battle rifle. I can forsee the need for a weapon that falls within the original parameters that does not freak out the neighbors or local police/politicians. It would be great if the original poster of this subject would help narrow his expectations of his/her needs. Who knows, a remington package deer autoloader in 308 might work or a 30 cal cabine. Light, rugged, inexpensive, reliable, multitasking, with ease of maintenence, capable of being practiced without causing undue notice. A main battle rifle is a scary thing to look at but does it fill all of the requirements in the previous sentence. If SHTF I want something other than a main battle rifle as designed by the Military and approved by Politicians. .308 is ok, semi auto if reliable over a couple thousand rounds is ok, but I have no intention fighting a pitched battle under SHTF, I intend to be a survivor not a soldier.


blindhari
Sgt Ranger
Like My Father Befoe Me

[GunTech]

Jeeze, the High Road doesn't seem to be so high any more. I guess I've been away for too long. There used to be some civility to the discourse on this site.

The point being, the M14 is still in use by the US military, so in some respects it certainly qualifies as a combat rifle. True, it's in limited application and is slated to be replaced by the M110.

So in that sense, the 'guys in green' are using the rifle. Not just based on a 'fuzzy and contextless' photo.

For example, and with context:



"11/17/06 – U.S. Army Sgt. 1st Class Richard Wiley demonstrates shooting an M-14 rifle to Iraqi Highway Patrol (IHP) police officers during close-quarters marksmanship training Nov. 17, 2006, at the Al Samud IHP Station in Iraq. Wiley is a platoon sergeant with Alpha Company, 3rd Battalion, 509th Infantry Regiment, Fort Richardson, Alaska. (U.S. Army photo by Spc. Olanrewaju Akinwunmi)"

[H2O MAN]

rbernie It proves that folk are capable of recirculating over and over, in every thread on the topic here on THR for
the last five years, the same fuzzy captionless and contextless picture of seven M14s in use in a range session

That's an interesting observation you have there bernie, especially interesting because the picture was originally taken late in 2008.
Sept. 8, 2008 at Forward Operating Base Salerno in the Khost province.
I'm no mathematician, but it's now late 2009 and that tells me that particular picture may have been in circulation for about 12 months - not five years.

[MJR007]

Interesting read, my DD-214 gives me the right to read this crap...11B and I understand some here more than others.

[taliv]

enough

[Lee Lapin]

Nothin' like a spirited game of CAC card poker .

Y'all can have the "combat rifles," I'm too old and broke down for that.

BTW, I don't recall too many servicemembers getting too many choices in what they carried in combat or otherwise. There was this thing called GI, which some said stood for "government issue." Musta been some other Army I was working for, hmm?

Keep smilin'...

And for the OP, all the 7.62X51 military style semiautos I've ever seen were heavy and unweildy. It's part of the tradeoff. Right now I'm having a certain amount of fun with a 16" Saiga in 7.62X51, but what I started out with more than 25 years ago when I felt the need to make the decision you're pondering right now was an M1A. It was an easy decision because that was the easiest choice back then. There's more choices now,but I considered myself OBE (overtaken by events) until the Saiga came along, and I decided to give it a try. I still have the M1A, though. It was $400 back then, custom built for me by a retired AMTU armorer. Most expensive gun I'd ever bought at the time, too.

Take that, you young whippersnappers! 8^)

lpl

[Justin]

That being said, we have 'he man' 3 gun, which is 45 pistol, 308 rifle and shotgun. M1A is the rifle of choice for this variant, though the AR-10s are showing up more and more.

Broadly speaking, He Man and Heavy Metal divisions encompass the same general rules regarding caliber restrictions. .223's aren't allowed to play. My observations have been much the same, M1A's and AR-10's, though from what I understand, Kelly Neal runs an FAL and it doesn't keep him from winning.

Of course in a match you aren't under field conditions, with people shooting at you. If we added mud, rain, sand and the like, with no alibis, you'd probably see a lot more AKs.

I suppose it depends on how you define field conditions. I've shot at 3gun matches with blowing sand, rain, and plenty of mud. At RM3G this year, there was enough sand whipped up by the wind that I had pistol magazines that stopped running, but my AR kept trucking along. Also, I'm unaware of any 3gun matches that will give you an alibi due to an equipment failure. All of the matches I've shot, if your gear fails in the middle of a stage your choices are to fix it as expeditiously as possible, put up with it, or walk off the stage incomplete.

As for AK vs. AR in 3Gun, that's truly another discussion for another time...

The M14/M1A is really a compromise rifle. It's not the most accurate, durable, reliable. But it is pretty good at just about everything. Sure, you can hit a target at 500 meters with an 5.56 AR, but in reality is it going to do much to a living target?

No idea. I suppose we'd have to look at terminal ballistics information for a .223 hitting a target at that distance. Regardless, I've never disputed that there's an obvious power difference between .223 and .308.

3 gun is a game that doesn't necessarily reflect reality. How many people carry IPSC comp guns for SD?

Nor have I ever claimed this, either, but I'm aware of plenty of people who shoot their carry gun, or very similar pistol in IPSC. It's a myth that IPSC is nothing more than a bunch of jerks with $3K+ race guns. Regardless, again and again H2O MAN has made claims about the superiority of his chosen platform for combat and practically everything else, and yet I've seen little to no actual, objective evidence to back up his rather flamboyant claims.