Should we notify...

mountainpharm · November 3, 2009, 01:34 PM

Fellow CCWers, do you feel obliged to notify property owners when you enter their property? This question stems from my profession as a pharmacist. I work in a hospital but will occasionally do "relief" work at a local drug store. The owner does NOT have any notification banning CCW on the premises and, given the relatively high-profile nature of pharmacies to criminals, I do carry when I work there. Part of me says I should tell him given that I enter his store as an employee rather than a customer; as a customer I wouldn't give it a second thought. Just something about the employer/employee thing that is weighing heavy. This question could easily be extrapolated to visiting the house of a friend. Should we disclose? I sure would hate to give up the tactical advantage of concealment, but I don't ever want to disrespect someone else's property rights.

CoRoMo · November 3, 2009, 01:40 PM

No.

I don't think that would be wise either. You are not under obligation to disclose the gun, but the property own IS under obligation to post signage, if they desire to prohibit them. This is not so much law, as it is my opinion, but it does have a legal foothold in some states.

Here's why I think it unwise...
Imagine that you did tell the owner that you carry and he's okay with it. You have no way to control how he uses that information. If he gets into a situation where he feels threatened, he might feel the need to use your sidearm for his protection. That's not something you want to happen. You should decide when, where, and how it is used. Also, it could be something as "innocent" as him making a remark to a third party about you packing. For example, an angry customer gets a little uncontrollable and he resorts to telling them that they had better behave because you're armed. You also don't want that going on.

There are far too many downsides to telling him. IMHO, he's got to make it a company policy, or assume that his employees are otherwise going to exercise their rights. If I was truly torn, I'd rather just leave it behind than to let someone know that I carry regularly.

WNC Seabee · November 3, 2009, 01:41 PM

My friends know I carry. Most have said, "I don't care if you carry at my place." A few I KNOW would not appreciate me carrying in their homes.

I choose to respect people's property rights and don't attempt to carry where I know I'm not welcome. If I know it is welcome, I usually do carry but do not inform each and every time.

Now, that's regarding friends/relatives. An employer? If your relationship is such that you're "just an employee" and there is no friendship, then I'd go straight to the "Employee Handbook", employment contract or whatever HR materials you signed; if there is one. That's what is supposed to govern an employee/employer relationship. In the absence of a handbook, I'd say don't ask, don't tell.

scottgun · November 3, 2009, 01:41 PM

Concealed carry means not tellilng anyone. Telling everyone that you visit that you are carrying a gun would be a bad move. People who aren't in the know with CCW have some serious misconceptions about what carrying a gun entails. For example, you tell property owner that you are legally carrying a gun. Property owner has an argument with a customer and might escalate it to the point of violence, with the false notion that you would step in to save him. That's just a hypothetical. But there's no legal or moral reason to tell anyone that you are carrying. IMO.

DeepSouth · November 3, 2009, 01:46 PM

So long as the weapon is well concealed, I would feel no responsibility or obligation to bring the subject up.

Vern Humphrey · November 3, 2009, 01:46 PM

I have no more obligation to tell someone I'm carrying then I do to tell them what kind of underwear I'm wearing. And until someone tells me I can't carry, I'm perfectly legal. If someone does tell me I can't carry, I don't go there anymore.

Sam1911 · November 3, 2009, 01:55 PM

As long as you are in line with your state's laws, your personal protection weapon is no business of anyone else.

You do a property owner or buisness owner neither harm nor disrespect by entering their premesis without alerting them that you are armed. Any more than you would by not alerting them that you know karate, can perform CPR, or carry breath mints!

-Sam

Pweller · November 3, 2009, 02:01 PM

I'd suggest that you study the laws about CCW in your state just to be sure that you don't have any legal obligations as an employee to disclose. I don't think that you would, but I don't know for sure, especially since CCW laws vary from state to state.

Keep in mind that at some point your employer might have inadvertent contact with you and discover that you are carrying.

Quoheleth · November 3, 2009, 02:02 PM

To the OP:
I would suggest you obtain an employee/volunteer handbook and read it. While he may not have signage that prohibits a customer/guest from entering while armed, he may have a "no ccw" policy for employee/volunteers, in which case you would be in violation.

If there is no such handbook, then "don't ask, don't tell" worked for almost 20 years.

Q

Edit: Sorry...I see, now, that WNC Seabee beat me to it.

Kleanbore · November 3, 2009, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Telling everyone that you visit that you are carrying a gun would be a bad move.

I understand that in some states it is required.

I don't live in one of them and I do not do so. If someone were to object I simply would not visit.

Tiako · November 3, 2009, 02:05 PM

I could never figure out in the state of Florida if I could indeed carry my gun into work.

WC145 · November 3, 2009, 02:05 PM

I think I would speak to him as a professional courtesy. If he has not posted the business and does not have any policies forbidding employees from carrying if licensed I'd hope he would be understanding. I am a respiratory therapist and a LEO, due to some management changes, I recently had a sit down with HR Director of the hospital I work for due to a "no weapons" policy for employees. I explained my dilemma to her - on one hand I have a professional obligation not to violate hospital policy, but on the other I also have a professional and moral obligation to intervene should a violent crime occur while I was working. We discussed my training and years of experience, my ability to keep my weapon concealed, the fact that we are a very small, rural hospital with no security to speak of, and the benefit of having an armed LEO on the premises. She was surprisingly understanding and agreed with me on all points and felt that it was in the best interest of the hospital to allow me to continue to carry while working as I had for years under the previous administration. She, the CEO, and a couple of other key managers are the only ones aware that I am armed.

She also asked my opinion on posting the hospital against licensed concealed carry (the new CEO came from a hospital that is posted) but I explained that the only people they would be affecting are the law abiding permit holders that had gone through the training, background checks, etc., and that anyone carrying illegally would simply ignore the signs. She saw the logic in that and agreed that they would not post the hospital.

DoubleTapDrew · November 3, 2009, 02:06 PM

If you tell him, it's no longer concealed. Plus as CoRoMo explained, you don't want him using you as his own private security force, even if he was ok with it.

**Mal H** · November 3, 2009, 03:53 PM

No. I've never felt obligated to tell anyone I am carrying.

Biker · November 3, 2009, 04:00 PM

Nope, concealed means concealed.

Biker

General Geoff · November 3, 2009, 04:01 PM

Quote:

I have no more obligation to tell someone I'm carrying then I do to tell them what kind of underwear I'm wearing.

This man wins the thread.

Unless you're carrying openly (in which case you shouldn't need to explicitly tell him anyway), there's no reason he needs to know that you're concealing a firearm. Do you inform your friends whenever you have a pocket knife on you? How about a cell phone? USB flash drive? A gun is no different.

Out of sight, out of mind.

BP Hunter · November 3, 2009, 04:04 PM

I carry in many of my friend's house and they don't know it. The only house I do not carry is in my twin brother's house. Sadly

, his wife is TOTALLY against firearms. Out of courtesy, I keep my gun in the truck when I enter her house.

My brother loves guns and shooting but is banned to own. He comes with me when he can

Zoogster · November 3, 2009, 04:04 PM

No, I do not feel that is an obligation. No different than a knife in the pocket, or a phone.
Maybe you should inform them of your multi-tool which could be a menace improperly used? Or a lighter which could start a fire? Of course not, if it is not going to be used then I see no need for notification.
Now if you are going to actually use an item, or take it out on thier property, then asking permission would be the polite and proper thing to do.

Now if it is an item that can effect them through mere presence, then that can change things. I would be quite upset if someone came over with illegal drugs in thier pocket, because that could effect me even if they never intend to take it out or use it.
Something highly toxic or something radioactive would likewise pose a risk even if never taken out, and is therefore an infringement of the property owner.

Now if a property owner wishes to specifically prohibit an item on thier property it would be common courtesy to not visit with that item. If they know you have a firearm and ask you not to bring it onto thier property, then don't.
No different than if they asked you not to bring a cell phone onto thier property, or not wear shorts on thier property, or not have X type of haircut, or say Y word, or...
A property owner can request whatever crazy thing they wish, and it would be common courtesy to obey thier rules or not visit if you do not wish to follow thier rules.

woad_yurt · November 3, 2009, 04:12 PM

If it hasn't come up beforehand and if there's no sign saying "no," I just keep mum and go about my business as usual, carrying.

mountainpharm · November 3, 2009, 04:13 PM

Thanks, everyone -- I feel better about the situation. I agree that concealed is concealed but something in the back of my mind flagged the whole employer/employee thing as different. Glad to know that I haven't been violating some unspoken moral code!

Morrell · November 3, 2009, 05:12 PM

Somewhat related... In South Carolina you have a legal obligation to inform a homeowner that you are armed before you can enter their home.

Pweller · November 3, 2009, 06:04 PM

There are two issues here. The first is a legal issue, which is 'are you legally obligated to inform?', the second is a moral issue, which is 'should you inform?'

I'm not really going to debate the moral issue, as there are two sides. But, some of the posts seem a little one-sided. I think before answering the moral issue, you should ask yourself this: if someone came into your home while carrying, do you feel that they have an obligation to tell you?

I'd bet many of the posters that said they have no obligation to inform anyone else would change their story if the roles were reversed.

**Mal H** · November 3, 2009, 06:39 PM

I'll call that bet and raise it. I seriously doubt that any who said they felt no obligation to inform would feel otherwise about having to be informed.

**BullfrogKen** · November 3, 2009, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pweller

you should ask yourself this: if someone came into your home while carrying, do you feel that they have an obligation to tell you?

I'd bet many of the posters that said they have no obligation to inform anyone else would change their story if the roles were reversed.

Nonsense.

If I wouldn't trust someone I knew to be in my home armed, I wouldn't trust him in my home period.

CoRoMo · November 3, 2009, 06:50 PM

Quote:

I'd bet many of the posters that said they have no obligation to inform anyone else would change their story if the roles were reversed.

And how much is it that you would bet? Seriously, I'd like to win your money today. Since I was the first poster "that said they have no obligation to inform anyone else", let me also be the first to say you are welcome to carry into my business anytime you wish. Heck, bring a class III item tucked up under your trench coat if you like. There are a number of us here packing... you may as well join us!

November 3, 2009, 01:34 PM	#1
mountainpharm Member Join Date: February 4, 2009 Posts: 89	Should we notify... Fellow CCWers, do you feel obliged to notify property owners when you enter their property? This question stems from my profession as a pharmacist. I work in a hospital but will occasionally do "relief" work at a local drug store. The owner does NOT have any notification banning CCW on the premises and, given the relatively high-profile nature of pharmacies to criminals, I do carry when I work there. Part of me says I should tell him given that I enter his store as an employee rather than a customer; as a customer I wouldn't give it a second thought. Just something about the employer/employee thing that is weighing heavy. This question could easily be extrapolated to visiting the house of a friend. Should we disclose? I sure would hate to give up the tactical advantage of concealment, but I don't ever want to disrespect someone else's property rights. __________________ Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose leaders are afraid to trust them with arms. - James Madison

November 3, 2009, 01:40 PM	#2
CoRoMo Member Join Date: September 21, 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 3,528	No. I don't think that would be wise either. You are not under obligation to disclose the gun, but the property own IS under obligation to post signage, if they desire to prohibit them. This is not so much law, as it is my opinion, but it does have a legal foothold in some states. Here's why I think it unwise... Imagine that you did tell the owner that you carry and he's okay with it. You have no way to control how he uses that information. If he gets into a situation where he feels threatened, he might feel the need to use your sidearm for his protection. That's not something you want to happen. You should decide when, where, and how it is used. Also, it could be something as "innocent" as him making a remark to a third party about you packing. For example, an angry customer gets a little uncontrollable and he resorts to telling them that they had better behave because you're armed. You also don't want that going on. There are far too many downsides to telling him. IMHO, he's got to make it a company policy, or assume that his employees are otherwise going to exercise their rights. If I was truly torn, I'd rather just leave it behind than to let someone know that I carry regularly. __________________ The Second Amendment of our Bill of Rights is my concealed weapons permit, period! Ted Nugent Last edited by CoRoMo; November 3, 2009 at 01:51 PM.

November 3, 2009, 01:41 PM	#3
WNC Seabee Member Join Date: July 7, 2008 Location: Hendersonville, NC Posts: 254	My friends know I carry. Most have said, "I don't care if you carry at my place." A few I KNOW would not appreciate me carrying in their homes. I choose to respect people's property rights and don't attempt to carry where I know I'm not welcome. If I know it is welcome, I usually do carry but do not inform each and every time. Now, that's regarding friends/relatives. An employer? If your relationship is such that you're "just an employee" and there is no friendship, then I'd go straight to the "Employee Handbook", employment contract or whatever HR materials you signed; if there is one. That's what is supposed to govern an employee/employer relationship. In the absence of a handbook, I'd say don't ask, don't tell. __________________ We Build. We Fight.

November 3, 2009, 01:46 PM	#5
DeepSouth Member Join Date: January 14, 2009 Location: Heart of Dixie Posts: 657	So long as the weapon is well concealed, I would feel no responsibility or obligation to bring the subject up. __________________ Don't be afraid of the enemy! Remember the Lord, who is great and glorious, and fight for your friends, your families, and your homes! Nehemiah 4:14

November 3, 2009, 02:02 PM	#9
Quoheleth Member Join Date: March 7, 2007 Location: The Land of Bowie, Crockett, Travis & Houston Posts: 1,646	To the OP: I would suggest you obtain an employee/volunteer handbook and read it. While he may not have signage that prohibits a customer/guest from entering while armed, he may have a "no ccw" policy for employee/volunteers, in which case you would be in violation. If there is no such handbook, then "don't ask, don't tell" worked for almost 20 years. Q Edit: Sorry...I see, now, that WNC Seabee beat me to it. __________________ Yes, you do have the right to voice your opinion. I also have the right to choose not to listen.

November 3, 2009, 01:41 PM	#4
scottgun Member Join Date: December 30, 2002 Location: CO Posts: 550	Concealed carry means not tellilng anyone. Telling everyone that you visit that you are carrying a gun would be a bad move. People who aren't in the know with CCW have some serious misconceptions about what carrying a gun entails. For example, you tell property owner that you are legally carrying a gun. Property owner has an argument with a customer and might escalate it to the point of violence, with the false notion that you would step in to save him. That's just a hypothetical. But there's no legal or moral reason to tell anyone that you are carrying. IMO.

November 3, 2009, 01:46 PM	#6
Vern Humphrey Member Join Date: December 30, 2002 Location: Deep in the Ozarks Posts: 11,248	I have no more obligation to tell someone I'm carrying then I do to tell them what kind of underwear I'm wearing. And until someone tells me I can't carry, I'm perfectly legal. If someone does tell me I can't carry, I don't go there anymore.

November 3, 2009, 01:55 PM	#7
Sam1911 Member Join Date: October 22, 2007 Location: Central PA Posts: 1,957	As long as you are in line with your state's laws, your personal protection weapon is no business of anyone else. You do a property owner or buisness owner neither harm nor disrespect by entering their premesis without alerting them that you are armed. Any more than you would by not alerting them that you know karate, can perform CPR, or carry breath mints! -Sam

November 3, 2009, 02:01 PM	#8
Pweller Member Join Date: June 23, 2007 Posts: 65	I'd suggest that you study the laws about CCW in your state just to be sure that you don't have any legal obligations as an employee to disclose. I don't think that you would, but I don't know for sure, especially since CCW laws vary from state to state. Keep in mind that at some point your employer might have inadvertent contact with you and discover that you are carrying.

November 3, 2009, 02:05 PM	#11
Tiako Member Join Date: October 17, 2009 Posts: 6	I could never figure out in the state of Florida if I could indeed carry my gun into work.

November 3, 2009, 02:05 PM	#12
WC145 Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Location: MAINE Posts: 662	I think I would speak to him as a professional courtesy. If he has not posted the business and does not have any policies forbidding employees from carrying if licensed I'd hope he would be understanding. I am a respiratory therapist and a LEO, due to some management changes, I recently had a sit down with HR Director of the hospital I work for due to a "no weapons" policy for employees. I explained my dilemma to her - on one hand I have a professional obligation not to violate hospital policy, but on the other I also have a professional and moral obligation to intervene should a violent crime occur while I was working. We discussed my training and years of experience, my ability to keep my weapon concealed, the fact that we are a very small, rural hospital with no security to speak of, and the benefit of having an armed LEO on the premises. She was surprisingly understanding and agreed with me on all points and felt that it was in the best interest of the hospital to allow me to continue to carry while working as I had for years under the previous administration. She, the CEO, and a couple of other key managers are the only ones aware that I am armed. She also asked my opinion on posting the hospital against licensed concealed carry (the new CEO came from a hospital that is posted) but I explained that the only people they would be affecting are the law abiding permit holders that had gone through the training, background checks, etc., and that anyone carrying illegally would simply ignore the signs. She saw the logic in that and agreed that they would not post the hospital. __________________ The problem with America is stupidity. I’m not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don’t we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

November 3, 2009, 02:06 PM	#13
DoubleTapDrew Member Join Date: February 24, 2006 Location: Oregon Posts: 3,895	If you tell him, it's no longer concealed. Plus as CoRoMo explained, you don't want him using you as his own private security force, even if he was ok with it. __________________ "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin NRA Life Member

November 3, 2009, 03:53 PM	#14
Mal H Administrator Join Date: December 20, 2002 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern VA Posts: 9,874	No. I've never felt obligated to tell anyone I am carrying.

November 3, 2009, 04:00 PM	#15
Biker Member Join Date: March 10, 2005 Location: Idaho Posts: 5,993	Nope, concealed means concealed. Biker __________________ Let's actually do something about our immigration problems. www.numbersusa.com www.fairus.org Here's to cheating, stealing, fighting and drinking. If you cheat, may it be a death; if you steal, may it be a heart; if you fight, may it be for your Brother; and if you drink, may it be with me. "Bring me my broadsword and clear understanding..." Ian Anderson

November 3, 2009, 04:04 PM	#17
BP Hunter Member Join Date: January 9, 2006 Location: Richland, WA Posts: 301	I carry in many of my friend's house and they don't know it. The only house I do not carry is in my twin brother's house. Sadly, his wife is TOTALLY against firearms. Out of courtesy, I keep my gun in the truck when I enter her house. My brother loves guns and shooting but is banned to own. He comes with me when he can

November 3, 2009, 04:04 PM	#18
Zoogster Member Join Date: October 27, 2006 Posts: 2,971	No, I do not feel that is an obligation. No different than a knife in the pocket, or a phone. Maybe you should inform them of your multi-tool which could be a menace improperly used? Or a lighter which could start a fire? Of course not, if it is not going to be used then I see no need for notification. Now if you are going to actually use an item, or take it out on thier property, then asking permission would be the polite and proper thing to do. Now if it is an item that can effect them through mere presence, then that can change things. I would be quite upset if someone came over with illegal drugs in thier pocket, because that could effect me even if they never intend to take it out or use it. Something highly toxic or something radioactive would likewise pose a risk even if never taken out, and is therefore an infringement of the property owner. Now if a property owner wishes to specifically prohibit an item on thier property it would be common courtesy to not visit with that item. If they know you have a firearm and ask you not to bring it onto thier property, then don't. No different than if they asked you not to bring a cell phone onto thier property, or not wear shorts on thier property, or not have X type of haircut, or say Y word, or... A property owner can request whatever crazy thing they wish, and it would be common courtesy to obey thier rules or not visit if you do not wish to follow thier rules. Last edited by Zoogster; November 3, 2009 at 04:17 PM.

November 3, 2009, 04:12 PM	#19
woad_yurt Member Join Date: August 23, 2007 Posts: 1,591	If it hasn't come up beforehand and if there's no sign saying "no," I just keep mum and go about my business as usual, carrying. __________________ A Makarov? Simple, easy and works perfectly every time. ¡Vale!

November 3, 2009, 04:13 PM	#20
mountainpharm Member Join Date: February 4, 2009 Posts: 89	Thanks, everyone -- I feel better about the situation. I agree that concealed is concealed but something in the back of my mind flagged the whole employer/employee thing as different. Glad to know that I haven't been violating some unspoken moral code! __________________ Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose leaders are afraid to trust them with arms. - James Madison

November 3, 2009, 05:12 PM	#21
Morrell Member Join Date: January 17, 2009 Location: SC Posts: 19	Somewhat related... In South Carolina you have a legal obligation to inform a homeowner that you are armed before you can enter their home.

November 3, 2009, 06:04 PM	#22
Pweller Member Join Date: June 23, 2007 Posts: 65	There are two issues here. The first is a legal issue, which is 'are you legally obligated to inform?', the second is a moral issue, which is 'should you inform?' I'm not really going to debate the moral issue, as there are two sides. But, some of the posts seem a little one-sided. I think before answering the moral issue, you should ask yourself this: if someone came into your home while carrying, do you feel that they have an obligation to tell you? I'd bet many of the posters that said they have no obligation to inform anyone else would change their story if the roles were reversed.

November 3, 2009, 06:39 PM	#23
Mal H Administrator Join Date: December 20, 2002 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern VA Posts: 9,874	I'll call that bet and raise it. I seriously doubt that any who said they felt no obligation to inform would feel otherwise about having to be informed.

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