Cop's 1911 vs. MRI Machine

JCF · December 12, 2006, 10:19 PM

I'm not sure I would agree that this was a "spontaneous" discharge, but it's interesting nonetheless.

http://www.ajronline.org/cgi/content/full/178/5/1092

Sindawe · December 12, 2006, 10:28 PM

LOL Thats as good as the MRI trying to eat a floor buffer.

carterbeauford · December 12, 2006, 10:36 PM

Quote:

The officer was carrying a model 1991 A-1 compact.45 caliber semiautomatic pistol

JMB lives!

Shear_stress · December 12, 2006, 10:42 PM

I really need to check to out the American Journal of Roentgenology more often.

default · December 12, 2006, 10:52 PM

What a bizarre story, and definitely worth reading to the end. How could it have fired? The answer and circumstances surrounding it are pretty weird and interesting. Very well-researched from a technical standpoint regarding firearms, as well. Thanks for posting, CFriesen!

QuarterBoreGunner · December 12, 2006, 11:43 PM

That's amazing; absolutely jaw dropping stuff.

Note to self: the MRI is NOT a fridge magnet.

favorite line, talking about the thumb safety:"...it also locks the slide in place, preventing retrograde motion of the slide and automatic ejection of the empty cartridge."

Retrograde... yeah that's a correct usage; I just never thought to apply it to the cycling of the slide.

Very interesting; great find.

Lambo119 · December 12, 2006, 11:55 PM

WOW! Great find!

cracked butt · December 13, 2006, 12:05 AM

Quote:

The pistol was likely drawn into the magnetic field so that the muzzle struck the magnet's bore first. With the firing pin allowed to move freely in its channel, the force of the impact on the muzzle end was sufficient to cause the firing pin to overcome its spring pressure and move forward to strike the primer of the chambered round.

I'm betting that the firing pin was also greatly accelerated by the magnetic field and added to the force in which it struck the primer.

Springfield must have had MRIs in mind when they designed their 1911s with a titanium firing pin and without the Colt series 80 style internal safety.

Wordsmith · December 13, 2006, 12:08 AM

Kudos to the OP for a fascinating find, and also to the writers of the article for doing their research on the firearm in question.

I love reading stuff like this. The stranger, the better.

Durruti · December 13, 2006, 12:19 AM

1. All firearms are always loaded.
2. Always keep a firearm pointed in a safe direction.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
4. Always be sure of your target and know what is behind it along the bullet's trajectory.
5. Never bring your firearm near an incredibly strong magnet.

350HO · December 13, 2006, 12:27 AM

Wow, I would not have thought about that.

tellner · December 13, 2006, 12:43 AM

When I worked in an MRI facility I lost more credit cards than you can imagine. But I always locked up the pocket knife and gun before starting work for the day.

meinbruder · December 13, 2006, 12:45 AM

Thank you CFriesen, great find. My wife runs an MRI facility and I have forwarded the link to her and the owner. It will hopefully be used in a staff meeting.

What jumps off the page is the tech allowing the officer to enter the MR suite with the pistol. It should have been secured in another room, the dressing room should have offered a lockable drawer with a non-magnetic key which would have remained with the officer. Allowing any ferrous object, of any size, near a powered up MR is foolish to fatal depending on circumstance. The tech should be fired over the incident.

The screening process just to get into the room with the magnet is intended to avoid anything like this from happening. If the slug had hit a vital part of the MR unit, that would have been a 1.5 million dollar mistake.
}:)>

QuarterBoreGunner · December 13, 2006, 12:47 AM

Quote:

5. Never bring your firearm near an incredibly strong magnet.

Seconded!

motoman · December 13, 2006, 12:51 AM

Did anyone notice how they call it a Colt 1991 pistol through out the article?

Wordsmith · December 13, 2006, 12:53 AM

I assume that's because he was carrying a Colt 1991, and not a 1911.

QuarterBoreGunner · December 13, 2006, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Did anyone notice how they call it a Colt 1991 pistol through out the article?

Well it was a 1991 model... ever seen the Colt's from that time?
They're prominently (and ugly) marked as such.

MikeG · December 13, 2006, 01:02 AM

"Springfield must have had MRIs in mind when they designed their 1911s with a titanium firing pin and without the Colt series 80 style internal safety."

I'm betting a MRI model 1911 wouldn't be a big seller. How would a titanium or scandium hand gun do?

350HO · December 13, 2006, 01:03 AM

"Honest Honey! This isn't a new rifle! It was just in the back of the safe!..."

I have done that.

Kruzr · December 13, 2006, 01:10 AM

Sure hope Kalifornia doesn't institute magnet tests!

default · December 13, 2006, 01:23 AM

Quote:

favorite line, talking about the thumb safety:"...it also locks the slide in place, preventing retrograde motion of the slide and automatic ejection of the empty cartridge."

Retrograde... yeah that's a correct usage; I just never thought to apply it to the cycling of the slide.

I too was intrigued by the use of the uncommon word "retrograde". More to the point, I have sometimes wondered what the real practical application of the slide-locking function of some manual safeties was. Now I know - it's to prevent 1911s from going full-auto if inadvertently dropped into an MRI machine. Seriously though, this is the opposite of an out-of-battery firing - it's more of a too-much-in-battery firing.

proud2deviate · December 13, 2006, 01:29 AM

Wow. Wouldn't Have thought the gun would have fired. . .

It's nice to see an article that sticks to facts. Contrast it to what would happen if the media latched onto this; "Gristly deaths narrowly averted; Horror insues when eeeevil gun fires itself in local clinic. . ."

tellner · December 13, 2006, 01:36 AM

I see. The firing pin struck the primer causing the weapon to fire. But the recoil wasn't strong enough to overcome the field pinning it to the wall of the magnet, so it didn't cycle. The officer is lucky that the gun didn't injure him. Not a bullet from the gun but the accelerating firearm flying through the air

GregGry · December 13, 2006, 02:03 AM

Quote:

But the recoil wasn't strong enough to overcome the field pinning it to the wall of the magnet, so it didn't cycle

Nope, the manual saftey kept the slide from functioning.

PotatoJudge · December 13, 2006, 02:06 AM

I didn't know either and had to look it up:

"1991 vs. 1911

For those wondering what the difference is between these pistols, the fact is there really is none. Back in 1991 Colt decided to market an economy version of their basic Series 80 Government Model. The polished blue was changed to an all-matte parkerized (later blue) finish, checkered rubber grip panels were used, and the serial number sequence was made similar to US military M1911A1 pistols. The resulting pistol was cleverly named "M1991A1", after the year of introduction. Mechanically however they are the same as any other Colt Series 80, 1911-type pistol."

Because the slide was locked would there be an increase in chamber pressure (I guess the pressure would be the same until the bullet leaves the barrel, then gasses leave the barrel and pressure can't build further), increased force of the cartridge on the breechface (I'm thinking it'd be the same, just with less work accomplished), increased muzzle blast (bet so), and/or recoil (I'll guess yes)? Anything else?

It sounds preventable with:
Ti firing pin
stiffer fp spring
stiffer fp block spring
Again, anything else?

December 12, 2006, 10:19 PM	#1
JCF Member Join Date: August 9, 2006 Posts: 699	Cop's 1911 vs. MRI Machine I'm not sure I would agree that this was a "spontaneous" discharge, but it's interesting nonetheless. http://www.ajronline.org/cgi/content/full/178/5/1092

December 12, 2006, 10:28 PM	#2
Sindawe Member Join Date: December 26, 2002 Location: Outside The People's Republic of Boulder, CO Posts: 3,485	LOL Thats as good as the MRI trying to eat a floor buffer. __________________ Knowledge is power Power corrupts Study hard Be Evil

December 12, 2006, 11:43 PM	#6
QuarterBoreGunner Member Join Date: March 10, 2003 Location: The City by the 'Bay' with the big 'Gold' bridge. Posts: 1,932	That's amazing; absolutely jaw dropping stuff. Note to self: the MRI is NOT a fridge magnet. favorite line, talking about the thumb safety:"...it also locks the slide in place, preventing retrograde motion of the slide and automatic ejection of the empty cartridge." Retrograde... yeah that's a correct usage; I just never thought to apply it to the cycling of the slide. Very interesting; great find. __________________ /Chris "Honest Honey! This isn't a new rifle! It was just in the back of the safe!..." "If your morals or your religion are getting in the way of your politics, you're not helping anyone.We don't have civil rights so we can be politically correct. We have civil rights so we can be different and offensive."- madmike, 2/18/04

December 12, 2006, 11:55 PM	#7
Lambo119 Member Join Date: October 19, 2006 Location: Midwest Posts: 145	WOW! Great find! __________________ "There are no victims, only volunteers. You volunteer by looking uncertain and afraid. You volunteer by being, as grass-eaters invariably are, unprepared to confront the hazards of life.."--Jeff Cooper. RIP ‘‘We, the People are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts — not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution.’’ --Abraham Lincoln

December 13, 2006, 12:19 AM	#10
Durruti Member Join Date: July 17, 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 209	1. All firearms are always loaded. 2. Always keep a firearm pointed in a safe direction. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot. 4. Always be sure of your target and know what is behind it along the bullet's trajectory. 5. Never bring your firearm near an incredibly strong magnet. __________________ A man who wishes to make a profession of goodness in everything must necessarily come to grief among so many who are not good. Therefore it is necessary for a prince, who wishes to maintain himself, to learn how not to be good. -Niccolo Machiavelli

December 12, 2006, 10:42 PM	#4
Shear_stress Member Join Date: April 27, 2005 Location: Neither here nor there Posts: 1,894	I really need to check to out the American Journal of Roentgenology more often.

December 12, 2006, 10:52 PM	#5
default Member Join Date: January 11, 2006 Posts: 372	What a bizarre story, and definitely worth reading to the end. How could it have fired? The answer and circumstances surrounding it are pretty weird and interesting. Very well-researched from a technical standpoint regarding firearms, as well. Thanks for posting, CFriesen!

December 13, 2006, 12:08 AM	#9
Wordsmith Member Join Date: December 7, 2006 Location: Appalachia Posts: 49	Kudos to the OP for a fascinating find, and also to the writers of the article for doing their research on the firearm in question. I love reading stuff like this. The stranger, the better.

December 13, 2006, 12:27 AM	#11
350HO Member Join Date: November 14, 2006 Location: IN, In the corn! Posts: 21	Wow, I would not have thought about that.

December 13, 2006, 12:43 AM	#12
tellner member Join Date: April 17, 2004 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,109	When I worked in an MRI facility I lost more credit cards than you can imagine. But I always locked up the pocket knife and gun before starting work for the day.

December 13, 2006, 12:45 AM	#13
meinbruder Member Join Date: December 27, 2005 Location: Portland, Oregon. Posts: 82	RE: Cop's 1911 vs. MRI Machine Thank you CFriesen, great find. My wife runs an MRI facility and I have forwarded the link to her and the owner. It will hopefully be used in a staff meeting. What jumps off the page is the tech allowing the officer to enter the MR suite with the pistol. It should have been secured in another room, the dressing room should have offered a lockable drawer with a non-magnetic key which would have remained with the officer. Allowing any ferrous object, of any size, near a powered up MR is foolish to fatal depending on circumstance. The tech should be fired over the incident. The screening process just to get into the room with the magnet is intended to avoid anything like this from happening. If the slug had hit a vital part of the MR unit, that would have been a 1.5 million dollar mistake. }:)> __________________ "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." --Benjamin Franklin, at the signing of the Declaration of Independence

December 13, 2006, 12:51 AM	#15
motoman Member Join Date: September 18, 2004 Location: MN Posts: 225	Did anyone notice how they call it a Colt 1991 pistol through out the article?

December 13, 2006, 12:53 AM	#16
Wordsmith Member Join Date: December 7, 2006 Location: Appalachia Posts: 49	I assume that's because he was carrying a Colt 1991, and not a 1911.

December 13, 2006, 01:02 AM	#18
MikeG Member Join Date: November 8, 2003 Location: the 'Funny Farm' Peyton Colorado Posts: 182	"Springfield must have had MRIs in mind when they designed their 1911s with a titanium firing pin and without the Colt series 80 style internal safety." I'm betting a MRI model 1911 wouldn't be a big seller. How would a titanium or scandium hand gun do?

December 13, 2006, 01:03 AM	#19
350HO Member Join Date: November 14, 2006 Location: IN, In the corn! Posts: 21	"Honest Honey! This isn't a new rifle! It was just in the back of the safe!..." I have done that.

December 13, 2006, 01:10 AM	#20
Kruzr Member Join Date: December 30, 2002 Location: Surf City, PRK Posts: 943	Sure hope Kalifornia doesn't institute magnet tests! __________________ *Abundant dulcibus vitiis*

December 13, 2006, 01:29 AM	#22
proud2deviate Member Join Date: December 9, 2004 Location: Missouri Posts: 452	Wow. Wouldn't Have thought the gun would have fired. . . It's nice to see an article that sticks to facts. Contrast it to what would happen if the media latched onto this; "Gristly deaths narrowly averted; Horror insues when eeeevil gun fires itself in local clinic. . ." __________________ You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it. . .

December 13, 2006, 01:36 AM	#23
tellner member Join Date: April 17, 2004 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,109	I see. The firing pin struck the primer causing the weapon to fire. But the recoil wasn't strong enough to overcome the field pinning it to the wall of the magnet, so it didn't cycle. The officer is lucky that the gun didn't injure him. Not a bullet from the gun but the accelerating firearm flying through the air

December 13, 2006, 02:06 AM	#25
PotatoJudge Member Join Date: November 17, 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 1,256	I didn't know either and had to look it up: "1991 vs. 1911 For those wondering what the difference is between these pistols, the fact is there really is none. Back in 1991 Colt decided to market an economy version of their basic Series 80 Government Model. The polished blue was changed to an all-matte parkerized (later blue) finish, checkered rubber grip panels were used, and the serial number sequence was made similar to US military M1911A1 pistols. The resulting pistol was cleverly named "M1991A1", after the year of introduction. Mechanically however they are the same as any other Colt Series 80, 1911-type pistol." Because the slide was locked would there be an increase in chamber pressure (I guess the pressure would be the same until the bullet leaves the barrel, then gasses leave the barrel and pressure can't build further), increased force of the cartridge on the breechface (I'm thinking it'd be the same, just with less work accomplished), increased muzzle blast (bet so), and/or recoil (I'll guess yes)? Anything else? It sounds preventable with: Ti firing pin stiffer fp spring stiffer fp block spring Again, anything else?

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode