VA CCW list published by Roanoke Times 3/11

[Bacchus]

Completely unconscionable.

Shedding light on concealed handguns

By Christian Trejbal
Christian Trejbal

Today is the start of Sunshine Week, the annual week in which we reflect on the importance of open government and public records. To mark the occasion, I want to take you on an excursion into freedom of information land. We're going to find out who in the New River Valley has a concealed handgun permit.

I can hear the shocked indignation of gun-toters already: It's nobody's business but mine if I want to pack heat.

Au contraire. Because the government handles the permitting, it is everyone's business.

There are good reasons the records are open to public scrutiny. People might like to know if their neighbors carry. Parents might like to know if a member of the car pool has a pistol in the glove box. Employers might like to know if employees are bringing weapons to the office.

And all Virginians have a stake in checking that their government is not making mistakes, for example, by issuing permits to convicted felons. Open records allow the media or any private citizen to check.

This is not about being for or against guns. There are plenty of reasons people choose to carry weapons: fear of a violent ex-lover, concern about criminals or worry that the king of England might try to get into your house. There are plenty of reasons to question the wisdom of widespread gun ownership, too.

But that's a debate for another time.

To illustrate the open government process, I set out to acquire permit lists for the New River Valley.

I first called the local circuit court clerks charged with overseeing permitting. They were helpful, as far as they could be.
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Only Radford and Floyd County said they could produce a list. Giles County maintains an unofficial list but could not produce an official one. Montgomery and Pulaski counties had squat. The best they could do is determine if a specific individual had a permit.

None of that conflicts with the law. The records must be available but not necessarily in the format citizens want.

Fortunately, one of the clerks tipped me off to another avenue. The state police, she thought, maintained a master list.

I called Richmond and found out that yes, they did have a statewide list. Bingo!

Then another lesson of open government hit. A copy would cost more than $100.

Any Virginian can show up at a government office and request a public document. If it is something simple such as a council agenda, officials usually gladly duplicate it, maybe charging a few cents for the photocopy.

If it is something more complicated, government agencies may charge for the time and effort to prepare the records. In the case of concealed handgun permits, state police need to weed through them to cut out some personal data, which takes staff time.

A state that eagerly puts sex offender data online complete with an interactive map could easily do the same with gun permits, but it does not.

I bit the bullet and placed my order, saving the paper a few bucks by taking a Jan. 18 list officials had recently prepared for someone else.

The compact disc arrived last week. Names, addresses, issue and expiration dates.

About 2 percent of Virginians, 135,789 of us, have concealed handgun permits. In the New River Valley, 3,826 people have them, a slightly higher rate than in the rest of the state.

I immediately started checking some names. Virginia Tech football coach Frank Beamer, no permit. Pulaski County Supervisor Dean Pratt, packing. Radford University President Penelope Kyle, no permit. Giles County Supervisor Paul "Chappy" Baker, packing.

Some of the names proved tricky. Dana Dwayne Munsey of Pembroke has a permit. Is that Mayor Munsey? Standoffish town officials wouldn't provide a middle name or address for confirmation, and the listed phone number is disconnected.

The list sports a dismayingly large number of typos for an official registry -- four different spellings of "Christiansburg," for example.

Local celebrities generally don't carry, but at least a half dozen elected officials do. I'll leave it to readers to figure out which ones so you can avoid annoying them at meetings.

As a Sunshine Week gift, The Roanoke Times has placed the entire database, mistakes and all, online at www.roanoke.com/gunpermits. You can search to find out if neighbors, carpool partners, elected officials or anyone else has permission to carry a gun.

Open government laws arose from distrust of government. They guarantee citizens can watch what government does in their names, including issuing gun permits.

Trejbal is an editorial writer for The Roanoke Times based in the New River Valley bureau in Christiansburg.

http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/trejbal/wb/108160

and the list is at:

http://www.roanoke.com/gunpermits/

[CZ 75 BD]

did not turn up.

[Master Blaster]

I just sent him a letter and suggest that others do the same

Here is my letter:

I’m sure you meant well and were thinking that you are contributing to public safety.
You may want to consider that folks who have arrested and testified against dangerous criminals, ex police officers witnesses, women hiding from abusive violent spouses, and others with real security issues, may have gun permits.

I hope that no dangerous criminal, homicidal spouse, or armed robber reads this list you decided to publish, and then goes after one of these permit holders.
Certainly you would feel tremendous guilt if someone, an ex police officer, a woman, child or Jewelry store owner were hurt or killed because you foolishly decided to publish their name and address to satisfy your own hatred for gun owners.

Likewise I’m sure you don’t mean to give burglars a list of where to steal a gun, which is what you have done.

Next year why don’t you publish a list of recently released criminals with their names addresses and convicted offenses, that way you would be helping law abiding citizens protect themselves, and doing an actual community service.

Take care and sleep easy tonight, because after all you aren’t on that list.

[unixguy]

It seems to me that having that sort of list be produced is exactly why there shouldn't be "permits" to exercise your 2nd amendment rights.

[hugh damright]

Well ... I don't see why anyone around here would buy a Roanoke Paper if they print editorials such as that Trejbal tripe. But if my neighbors bought a Roanoke paper and saw my name on a list of people with CCW permits, I reckon they'd feel good about it, and assume that I am some kind of protector rather than some kind of threat.

[davhina]

Great! Just looked up my name..it is there, along with address...doesn't get much better than this

[ZeSpectre]

Strangely enough I'm not on there. Several people I know are.

The email I composed...

Mr. Trejbal,

A number of law abiding citizens go to a good deal of trouble and expense in order to obtain a concealed carry permit. This process is, in fact, considerably more involved than getting your drivers license (and if you think firearms are more dangerous than cars you really need to do some research). We could, quite legally, forgo that time, expense, and governmental investigation and simply open carry as we please. This is perfectly legal in Virginia.

So why do we bother with all of the hoop jumping?

Because "Bill of Rights" topics seem to get people worked up (on all sides of the matter). In consideration of that, some firearms owners prefer to be much more discreet in their actions. Also you may consider CCW permits as a compromise between those who believe in the Bill of Rights (especially the 2'nd Amendment) and those who think only duly authorized agents of the state should be armed. Isn't compromise supposed to be good?

It appears that you do not feel that compromise is good since your article simply blows the lid off of any attempt at discretion. You may truly believe that "the people have the right to know" but I have to ask you WHY do they need to know?

The people you have "uncovered" are law abiding citizens who have been "vetted" by the state via a background check, and who have spent their own precious time and money to go through an OPTIONAL (they could just open carry) process of training and authorization that is supposed to lessen tensions for everyone concerned. That these people have gone through all this bother AND PASSED should make you consider them MORE trustworthy not less.

That you don't understand this is, at best, terrible ignorance and at worst smacks of prejudice and yellow journalism.

Would you post a list of names and addresses for persons known to be gay? (people might want to know.) Would you post a list of names and addresses for persons returning from military service? (people might want to know). The point is that nobody, in any of the examples, has committed any crime so I wonder again WHY you would feel the need to spotlight any of them.

[Cacique500]

Idiot journalist. I responded to him and sent a copy of the link to PVC @ VCDL.org in case he hasn't seen it yet.

I bet by this time next year there's a law against it...

[DKSuddeth]

It's fricking Virginia, you don't NEED a concealed permit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Winter Borne]

I am speachless sitting here reading my name and address printed like a roadmap for any would be gun thief who needs a weapon but can't "buy" it. I am so very glad that this pin head has decided to barter the safety of my wife and children in an effort to get his pathetic point of view accross. I am sure this same worthless "do-gooder" would have the ACLU on the phone quicker than you can spell "right to privacy" if someone tried to publish the names and addresses child molestors or previously convicted criminals for the very same reasons he listed for publishing the CCW data.

I have no problem with my neighbors or employees knowing that I am armed, in fact I take every opportunity to help re-educate all I come into contact with of the un-arguable fact that guns save lives when in the hands of law abiding people. HOWEVER, those who would commit crimes in our sococity can read and use mapquest too, and am sure a list of places he might easily find a gun to steal would be just as helpful as a list of people who have a hide-a-key under their car.

[BobCav]

Talk about BS. Someone needs to FOIA his address from the county tax records and publish it.

[gezzer]

Response should be taking an add in local papers and post on the internet town and city sites Names and addresses of the unarmed, especially the reporter and all who work for that paper. That way the get no protection for the crooks rapists and murderers as a benefit of we who have our own protection

[Wolfgang]

Found myself! Oh happy day...

[davhina]

Well said Winter..
I just told my wife about this. She still has a "I can't believe it", thousand yard stare on her face.

Maybe next time, this brilliant reporter, can list phone numbers, daily schedules, number of guns in the home, alarm systems with codes....
I digress

[vis-à-vis]

I'm not even in VA and it ticks me off!

[bowline]

CHRISTIAN J TREJBAL
675 SCHOOL LN
CHRISTIANSBURG, VA 24073


NOT a permit holder

[cassandrasdaddy]

the free lance star did this too someone found out editors and publishers home address and number and posted it on nra page suggested we call and voice ire and "don't worry they stay up late" policy changed in about a week cancell subscriptions and notify advertisers you will be boycotting those that use the paper and cancel any adds you and friends run making sure to specify reason

[davhina]

Mr. Trejbal,
Thank you for making my name and address, and the fact that i own guns, available to all.
Sir, are you familiar with the definition of "concealed"?
That means no one knows about it, it is hidden!
What is your address Mr Trejbal? You have shown the world mine, show the world yours.
Your stats on crime in CCW states are wrong. Not sure where you are getting them from. Provide us with a link to your FBI crime stats vs. CCW states and non CCW states. We only have to look at our Nation's Capitol, where guns are banned-period(unless locked up, disassembled, and no ammo present)to see that violent crime exists, predominantly, in areas, with strict gun control.
You are wrong about CCW and should educate yourself. Try an NRA CCW permit course, and some range time.
With respect,
David Hina
CHP Holder



Regarding "Sunshine Week"
Might have been a better idea to "out" Child molesters, rapists, murderers living amongst us , rather than law abiding CCW holders.

Did you know that as a CCW holder we are required to go through finger printing and an extensive backround check?

Maybe during "Sunshine Week", you should point the light on a more appropriate target.
David Hina

these are 2 of my 3 responses to the "jounalist" the third was to tell him i did not realize that he had(foolishly on his part)posted his home address.

[g5reality]

CHRISTIAN J TREJBAL Born Sep 1970
2502 FAIRWAY DR SW
ROANOKE, VA 24015

e-mail address: christian.trejbal@roanoke.com

www.Zabasearch.com

Roanoke Times
201 W. Campbell Ave.
P.O. Box 2491
Roanoke, Va. 24010-2491
Main Switchboard: (800) 346-1234 or (540) 981 3340

[Geno]

The Detroit News and Detroit Free Press tried this in Michigan. They lost; we won. All it will take is one person (CCW-holder) who is attacked to file suit for their injuries being caused by their "concealed" info being "brandished" in the paper., making it possible for some thug to seek them out.

Michigan's concealed laws were upheld with the argument that "C" of the MCPL means "concealed", and to make the records of it public would run contrary. Add to the mix that Michiganders have a right to privacy. This one really urinated the press right off. Urinated-off is good! In fact, is excellent!

For what it's worth, even if they published the list, I would still have my MCPL!

[SouthpawShootr]

I don't care what these imbeciles say, NOBODY has the right to know this information.

I'm not going to waste an e-mail to this guy. Instead, I'm going to make it my little pet project to send screen captures of their information to each and every one of the elected officials up in Richmond. I'm sure many of them (probably most) have CCWs. I'm also fairly sure not one of them would like to see their home address right there for everyone to see.

[g5reality]

Here's a list of Judges in Virginia also public information. Wonder how many of them are on the list?

http://www.courts.state.va.us/judges.htm

[Flyboy]

A) Turnabout is fair play--distribute handbills with "unarmed victim" lists, starting with the paper's employees (Trejbals chain of command, at least)
B) He wants to know who's carrying? Find--sounds like it's time for VCDL to organize an open-carry walking league through his neighborhood; after all, we could all use a little exercise...

[craig]

our local paper did the same thing about 18 months ago.

the editor got so many calls, emails, and letters (thanks guys, a lot of the responses came from thr members) he did a special column on it. he still said it was the right thing to publish the list.

after that, our state legislators got so much flack, that it's now against the law for the papers to publish lists like that.

you might want to get everybody that's listed to contact their reps and have them put a stop to it.

[F4GIB]

Notice how HE has a unlisted telephone number.

He values HIS privacy.