Status
Not open for further replies.

A5WaffleIron

Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2017
Messages
13
Location
Albuquerque
Greetings all, first post!

I am interested in shortening my Browning A5, but am having a hard time nailing down precise definitions. What I currently have is a 20-something inch barrel and a shoulder stock. I plan to shorten the barrel to less than 18", but overall length will exceed 26" (the same way the Tac-14 is legal). Where it gets hazy is the stock: the weapon has and was sold with a full length shoulder stock. Can I legally put a pistol grip on this shotgun? Is there anything illegal about putting a pistol grip on a (Ed: previously) shouldered shotgun? I understand that it would then become a "firearm" (I am of legal purchasing age) but cannot find information on the legality of a "shotgun" becoming a "firearm".

Most interested in cited sources. New Mexico resident (with pretty lax gun laws) so primarily interested in Federal law.
 
Last edited:
Far as I know it has to have been originally constructed without a stock for it to be considered a shockwave-type "firearm." If you replace a stock with a PGO and shorten the barrel to less than 18" you'll be in violation.

That's my understanding. I could be wrong.
 
Do you have a source? A shotgun is defined as being shoulder fired; this will not be, thus it is not a "shotgun" but a "firearm".

I looked up the laws; this is what I've found. Forums are my last resort.
 
From the link, with comments inserted in bold.

The National Firearms Act of 1934 (NFA) requires the registration, with the federal government, of fully-automatic firearms (termed “machineguns”), rifles and shotguns (Definition from the ATF: The term “Shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder...) that have an overall length under 26 inches, rifles with a barrel under 16 inches, shotguns (Definition from the ATF: The term “Shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder...) with a barrel under 18 inches, and firearm sound suppressors (termed “silencers”). The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) placed “destructive devices” (primarily explosives and the like, but also including firearms over .50 caliber, other than most shotguns) under the provisions of the NFA. In 1994, the Treasury Department placed revolving-cylinder shotguns and one semi-automatic shotgun under the NFA.

Since this is/was designed/redesigned, made/remade intended to be fired with both hands, unshouldered, it is a firearm. So...
what says it's illegal for a shotgun to become a firearm?
 
You can't PGO an A-5 because the action return spring runs through the rear stock. Let me rephrase that; You can't easily PGO an A-5. I'm sure an "Sidewinder"-type conversion could be done, but not without a lot of re-working the gun.
 
"If you don't believe the laws or the forums call your local sheriffs office and ask them to how they feel about it."
I hope Blkhrt13 is joking. Your local sheriff's office probably knows little to nothing about these questions, and if you ask them you might end up on their suspicious person radar.
 
I appreciate your enduring support and wisdom. I have already contacted the ATF. This is not a debate, I am looking for concrete evidence on whether or not it is legal for a shotgun to become a firearm.
 
You can't PGO an A-5 because the action return spring runs through the rear stock. Let me rephrase that; You can't easily PGO an A-5. I'm sure an "Sidewinder"-type conversion could be done, but not without a lot of re-working the gun.

This is actually a blessing in disguise. I am familiar with the action spring, it keeps the shotgun/firearm above the 26" minimum. Good observation though... it will be a rather lengthy pistol grip by industry standards.
 
Yes, and no. With a functional buttstock, the weapon can be shoulder fired, thus maintaining it's "shotgun" status, becoming an SBS, which would require a tax stamp.
 
Not if you keep the barrel at >18". As I understand the ATF's definitions, it can only be a 'firearm' with a barrel of less than 18" if it is built on a receiver that has never been a shotgun. (This is why builders buy receivers from Remington and Mossberg.) Build a 'firearm'-type weapon from a shotgun that had a shoulder stock on it at any point and you have created an NFA regulated AOW, which requires the proper forms and taxes. Mach IV Shooter will know these laws better than I, as he is a SOT. (Not a drunk, AFAIK, but a Special Occupational Taxpayer, that is, he builds such guns, or can, legally.)

Here's 26 USC 5845:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5845

Just between you and me (April WIne reference), I believe that § (a) (2) is written so that they are individual qulaifiers; that is, to satisfy the legal definition of ' NFA firearm' it only needs one of the two items listed. <26" overall or <18" barrel, not both. Frank Ettin will undoubtedly come by soon and tell why I'm wrong. I hope so.
 
Last edited:
A shotgun is defined as a shotshell firing arm designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder.

Similarly, a rifle is also defined as an arm designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder.

If you read the definitions of NFA firearms as given in the US code you'll find that two of the definitions given for NFA firearms are "Firearm made from a rifle," and "Firearm made from a shotgun.".

While the ATF did recently reverse their long standing position on handguns being made into rifles and back into pistols, (2011) they steadfastly enforce that any firearm built as a shotgun IS now and forever a shotgun, and any firearm made from a rifle IS now and forever a rifle.
Read more here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921

Look at subsection a(6):
(6)
The term “short-barreled shotgun” means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification or otherwise) if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

There's really no question or lack of clarity.

If you really spoke to the ATF I'm a bit shocked they didn't quite that, chapter and verse, but now you know.
 
Not if you keep the barrel at >18". As I understand the ATF's definitions, it can only be a 'firearm' with a barrel of less than 18" if it is built on a receiver that has never been a shotgun. (This is why builders buy receivers from Remington and Mossberg.) Build a 'firearm'-type weapon from a shotgun that had a shoulder stock on it at any point and you have created an NFA regulated AOW, which requires the proper forms and taxes. Mach IV Shooter will know these laws better than I, as he is a SOT. (Not a drunk, AFAIK, but a Special Occupational Taxpayer, that is, he builds such guns, or can, legally.)

That’s what I was looking for, thank you. The AOW definitions are blurry at best, I’ll do my best to contact him.
 
If you read the definitions of NFA firearms as given in the US code you'll find that two of the definitions given for NFA firearms are "Firearm made from a rifle," and "Firearm made from a shotgun.".

While the ATF did recently reverse their long standing position on handguns being made into rifles and back into pistols, (2011) they steadfastly enforce that any firearm built as a shotgun IS now and forever a shotgun, and any firearm made from a rifle IS now and forever a rifle.
Read more here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921

There's really no question or lack of clarity.

If you really spoke to the ATF I'm a bit shocked they didn't quite that, chapter and verse, but now you know.

Thanks. I couldn’t find anything on firearms made from shotguns. I’ll check it out. I have contacted the ATF, not spoken with. I think there’s a six to eight month wait on e-mail responses.
 
Sam1911, I’ve contacted MachIVshooter, and I appreciate the reference, but the phrase “firearm made from shotgun” lead me to the ATF’s website, where I found this:

Overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guide-identification-firearms-section-4

It seems they’re still defining it by lengths, but I will still check with MachIVshooter about the receiver’s history being an issue. “Firearm made from shotgun” is a key phrase that would’ve helped this search a long time ago, thanks for the heads up.
 
What I linked to and quoted is the text of the federal law.

Don't be confused by over-reading into the phrasing of the ATF's guide to it. The law says what it says, in very plain language.

If you have a shot shell firing gun with a shoulder stock and you cut the barrels to below 18", that's an NFA Firearm. If you make it less than 26" overall, that's an NFA Firearm.

Either modification to a weapon that is a shotgun makes it an NFA firearm.

You can't improve upon the situation by trying to out think it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top