Shaking hands

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Spoke to my Pastor yesterday, he is pro carry in Church. According to him there are at least 4 guys that carry into church including a guy that sits in the lobby during service.
 
Trivia moment:

The handshake was actually invented as a gesture to show weakness by offering your weapon hand without a weapon. It created a scenario you would not put yourself in if you did not trust the person in ancient times.
Even in more modern times like the old west things were not what you see on the movies. In the movies what you are seeing are the ideals of the 1940s-1950s transposed onto the old west, not the real old west.
If you rode up to someone's camp you were almost asking to be shot. That was the action of a bandit or criminal trying to sneak in or attack with speed or stealth.

In ancient times even approaching strangers from a distance while traveling was rude and hostile. If you did approach you let the other side know from a far distance.
When groups did meet sometimes an envoy or scout or member of the group would shake hands, a gesture that left the men in harms way, and by showing vulnerability to the other you were showing a level of trust.


So it is quite ironic to want to shake someone's hand without being vulnerable, as that was actually the entire point of shaking hands.
 
Metal detector wand? If someone intends trouble the first person shot in a room is the guy obviously acting as the security and/or armed. I always found security manned by one or two people without any other the most pointless facade in the world for stopping such things. Those people die before they know a problem is coming, and then all the people screened and disarmed are vulnerable.

Security checkpoints not backed up by multiple armed people just mean every person that has gone through is a better victim when the one guy armed enforcing compliance that doesn't see it coming goes down first.
I always found schools with a single police officer or security guard just as pathetic for the same reason. The guy that knows what the security situation is and comes intending harm already is going to attack at the point of or before that screening location, and then proceed right on through it over the body of the guy that just insured everyone beyond that point was disarmed.

These checkpoints may deter some, but mostly they provide a false sense of security and insure more vulnerable victims.

It costs too much money to adequately provide paid security in most small or medium sized establishments, in this case volunteers can make it affordable. In most other situations it requires people that do tasks other than security to also be armed. Like at a school a principal or teacher in addition to a single security officer that plan to assist and are armed.
Every security or police officer is tens of thousands of dollars a year, one already is too expensive for many places, and adding enough to have a layered defense impractical. In CA a police officer makes six figures, and they cant find enough people willing to take the job and enforce the crazy things the state comes up with while risking your life wearing a camera and held to an almost unrealistic standard that pretty much insures the first cop will die facing any surprise attacker that is even remotely competent. This means the tax dollars behind having not just one but multiple officers is rather prohibitive and will greatly reduce how much the population gets out of their tax dollars if they provide that level of security in many places.
Policing really is a sacrifice, because no matter how big and bad and tough you are, you cannot really protect yourself from a surprise attack and at least one guy has to go down before the others can respond and take out the known threat. That is why you should never police any population you do not really love, or community you do not care about, because it is a sacrifice.
 
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Random thoughts:

If you compromise/impede the mission of the church for the sake of security, then you might as well pack it in.

Always evaluate your best estimate of the likelihood for something going wrong with either path of action. (i.e. Come across as cold and suspicious to visitors, making them feel unwelcome vs. visitor pulls gun while they are holding your hand and defeats church's security plan).

Small churches depend more on everyone pitching in and pulling their weight, which builds a stronger sense of community. Often people don't step up to the plate because they are unaware of the need. And often people like being "in charge" of their niche and don't to share a responsibility with others.

A hand shake and close face to face observation can communicate very quickly a lot of information regarding someones disposition and state of mind.

If you shake their right hand while handing them a bulletin with your left, you have safely occupied both of their hands.... if someone refuses to take the bulletin or shake your hand it should make your spidy senses tingle.

People who show up with kids or a companion of the opposite gender are most likely not a threat, as the odds of having two psychotic nuts get along well enough to strategise shooting up a church are likely pretty darn low.
 
One should have faith in God. If I had no faith I would not go to place of worship in the first place. Guns in place of worship are inapropriate.

Jesus Christ disagrees with you. Guns are necessary to protect God’s sheep.

“Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭22:36‬ ‭KJV‬‬



https://www.bible.com/bible/1/luk.22.36.kjv
 
Plat & Mattix
Kliebold & Harris
Jarrad & Amanda Miller
Erickson & McKinney

And how many of these dynamic duos shot up a church?

I suggest that all public shootings are not the same and that one should adopt policies and tactics appropriate to their specific environment.

State mandated attendance to socialization factories aka. public schools produces a different type of resentment and angst than voluntary attendance at a house of worship. Pull the string on it and I believe you'll find that church shooters operate independently, as they have their own individual and personal beefs with God.

The same dynamic applies to (non-robbery) instances of workplace violence.
 
Life comes at ya from all directions... why do so many restrict their ability to answer back to but one side? You have two hands, teach & practice both. Even if not for the church, for your self & family. Suppose your strong hand/arm is damaged, in a cast. Your off hand takes over.
But it has been said that -- in a crisis one tends to default to their training. Raising to the occasion is a noble thought. Be sure to mention it to St. Peter.
Depending on the weather, season & how I'm dressed, strong side is a 9, 40 or 45; weak side is 380 or 9. Both fit and with my home made holster and do not print or drag down the material. Make it at home with a piece of shirt weight cardboard folded twice near the center to make a troth as wide as the grip, length is a bit shorter than the pockets front to back and height is almost the same as the gun .. Wrap both sides of it with duct tape and put a 3x piece up the outside at the muzzle. This prevents the muzzle from rubbing the coat fabric.
Your reaction time is very little if you start with your hand in the pocket half on the gun. Practice having your hand in the pocket, 3 fingers on the grip and your trigger finger OUTSIDE the 'holster'. Your trigger finger stays on the not gun side of the holster till you draw to engage. Though I have practiced with old coats shooting through the pocket (NOTE: the zipper !!)
You may want to go plastic for this piece so as to avoid sweat on metal.
 
Even in this day and age many Pastors would not want someone armed in the sanctuary...I would talk to the Pastor, especially if you intend to act as "unofficial security".

Agreed - it's a good idea to talk to the pastor - hopefully there is a response plan in each church. It's helpful for the pastor to know who carries and by talking to him, it allows the pastor to integrate folks into the plan as appropriate.

I'm a pastor - I'm typically armed about 50% of the time in service - but when I'm not, I'm very comfortable knowing that a large number of folks in my congregation are able to respond to any threats we may have. Of course, I'm in a rural town in the mid-west and that's just normal for here - a few guys even open carry. I recently moved here from a church in suburban NJ and I was always worried about security there. It was a dangerous area and I felt the law prevented us from providing an adequate level of security. I'm so happy to have been able to move my family to a better environment.
 
This is an interesting topic and discussion.
Your problem is you have no faith.
One should have faith in God. If I had no faith I would not go to place of worship in the first place. Guns in place of worship are inapropriate.
. I feel 100% safe in place of worship w/o being armed.
Except for all of this nonsense ^^^^^^^^^^^. Assuming people have no faith because they do something different then you is totally inappropriate and down right rude. Advocating people abandon their means of defense because YOU feel one way is dangerous. If you feel 100% safe in church, that's good for you, but your assertions are just as socialistic and suppressive of people's personal rights as all the gun grabbers and banners out there. Do you also advocate gun free zones? You know, like the ones that keep getting shot up?

Remember the Sikh temple shooting in Oak Creek, WI like 6 or 7 years ago? Then there was the racially motivated shooting in that Baptist church in Georgia, I think 3 or 4 years ago. Churches are vulnerable just like any other location. When people with murderous intent start getting fried at the door by unexplained lightning on sunny days, THEN we can all feel safe. Until then, I'm going to carry on. Do what you like, that's your right, but I completely disagree with everything you said.

@bluejeans I used to run the sound board for my girl friend's church for 2.5 years. It was a trans-denominational church, and really did bring in some misfits, lost souls, people with personal problems, etc. I called it a hippy church, though I mean nothing derogatory about that. I like lots of and work with lots of modern day hippies. Anyway, the married couple that ran the church let anyone in, and welcomed everyone. It's a nice thing to do, but they were also letting drug addicts and homeless people stay there. I carried every time I attended and ran the board. I was in a booth, which gave me an excuse to sit in back, and keep an eye on the door., and also gave me some cover. But I and the pastor were basically the only ones who faced the entryway. I waved hello and said hi to anyone who came in, but kept my distance. I also got in the habit of shaking hands with my left hand the first few times I met someone, until I was at least a little comfortable that they weren't a threat. It confused people because most people expect a right hand. None the less, it left my strong arm free to shove someone off me if they tried anything, and then draw. One creepy dude in general, who exhibited clear mental fixations on someone and severe psychological issues really bugged me out whenever he'd attend. His behavior was totally inappropriate in any church. Then one day he stopped showing up. I was basically waiting for him to show up one day with a gun and start shooting.

It may seem unfriendly but actively looking for reasons to engage, but not get too close, is a constant and difficult mental workout in these scenarios. Off hand handshakes can help in some scenarios, but not others. I usually only make it a habit to shake new coworkers hands. That's all.

Best bet, be verbally friendly, but look busy when ever you can so you can keep folks at arm's length.
 
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To the point about one guy at the door being a great target, in my congregation we have TWO guys in front. One is at the door, the other is partway to the street, scanning in all directions. Then we have multiple official security team members inside. Plus other congregants carrying. I'm very happy we are set up this way even though at the same time it breaks my heart that it's necessary.
 
Here in Virginia our state code has a section on prohibited areas. A pertinent section to this thread, on carrying a handgun into church says, (You can't carry a concealed handgun)..."Section18.2-283: To a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place, without good and sufficient reason."

A few years back our AG wrote that self-defense is a good and sufficient reason. I'm not aware of a precedent case one way or the other, so tread lightly.

On the handshake topic, I'm of the opinion that a well prepared person these days knows how to use their weapon, and can also adapt to unarmed self defense. One doesn't need too be Bruce Lee to do so. If something goes wrong, mid-handshake, a strong left hand strike to the throat can make a statement.

If one needs more justification for a gun lifestyle, remember Commandment # 7, Thou Shall Not Kill. I think of that Commandment meaning "Protect Life", which has broad application in today's world.
 
I was agreeing with johnmcl. It should be obvious why. The Old Testament had self-defense laws spelled out pretty well for the time period, actually. It was not considered murder to kill an intruder in one's domicile, particularly at night.
 
Interesting topic and discussion. Also pretty civil, save for just a few posts-my compliments. A few of us are going to approach our Pastor about this very thing. A friend of mine, an elder, surmises that about 4 of our membership carry every service. I personally do not, as it is illegal in Michigan, without the pastor's permission. Though it is a small church, shootings don't seem to visit only the larger ones. We are going to bring up the idea of security, mostly so the Pastor can know just who in his congregation carries, if he is open to it. Those that are not part of security can simply ask for themselves. My friend is like me, carries daily, but not in church, as he hasn't yet approached the Pastor. Just waiting for the right opportunity, like at an elder's meeting.
 
I'm on the security team for our church, and we're armed. It’s important to remember that the church is there to minister to people so we have a welcoming atmosphere while doing what we can to keep them safe. We have greeters who shake hands with people entering the church while we stand back, smile and say hello. It allows us to greet people properly while watching for anyone who would do them harm.
 
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