AR15 rivals worth checking out?

A good AR is about as good a military rifle as is made today. I'm more of a scar guy because I tend to go a little against the grain, but you can't deny the performance of a properly built AR. 50 years of development and improvements will do that... if the design is solid. Stoner was a smart dude.

I can't lend any comment as to whether the AR15 is a great military rifle or not because I have never been in a uniform. But as far as the needs of a normal civilian for a semi automatic intermediate rifle, the AR15 is pretty darn near perfect if you ask me. The combination of reliability, ease of use, ease of maintenance, ability to self maintain, parts cost and availability, modularity, accuracy, and value for money can't be rivaled. Nothing is even close.

I went through this recently when deciding on a .223 semi-auto. It seemed like one major difference between AR and non-AR models came down to a choice between direct impingement or piston operation.

I went with a Ruger MPR. This rifle was the best bang for the buck that I could find after comparing many AR models feature for feature. For $500 it had every thing I was looking for. Decent trigger, medium profile 18" 1:8 barrel, flattop, and rifle length gas system. All I had to do was add an optic.

I chose the AR platform over the other offerings mainly due to cost. The piston type choices in .223 are much more expensive. The advantage of the gas piston type rifles is that they tend to stay cleaner and require less frequent maintenance in a high round count scenario. I didn't need this level of performance.

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The Exile said:

Did the AR15 truly earn it's popularity by being the best of the best?

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Yup.

And for the price of one Tavor, one can have three or more ARs.
That, and I'm not Russian. Never the AK.

And, nope, to the third question.

The AR is the whole package

Low cost
Good aftermarket
Endless configurations
Availability
More or less standardized specs
Cheap ammo
Outstanding accuracy for a low cost semi auto.

It’s just ubiquitous. It makes a lot of sense to have one.

But I am with you. Is it the best or is it the best package with compromises?

I admit freely that there are too many out there for my tastes. 1/2 of everything at a typical shop seems to be AR rifles and parts. It’s boring. I would live to walk into a shop and snap my fingers and make them all disappear so my browsing would be more enjoyable.

I think the AK74 has some promise but the cheap ammo dried up a long time ago. There needs to be some more aftermarket support for it as well.

Tavors and SCARs are too darn expensive up front for added enjoyment down the line. That is a lot of ammo you could have bought or there is no money left to customize and make your rifle more user friendly to you.

The Exile said:

. . . There's a few competitors out there like the AK 47/74 or things like the Tavor or the SCAR16.

. . . I don't have the budget or the time to really go out and make a point to track down and rent all these different guns.

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You just answered your question. If you want anything on the spectrum from Plinker-Battle rifle-Precision semiauto, and money matters to you, the AR is your answer. All of the others options offer less for more (money).

I went with a Ruger Mini-14 Ranch, mostly for the nostalgic appearance, it doesn't look mean & scary (sic), and that fact that it can still use detachable magazines here in CT (for now).

The Exile said:

... Is it just because it's so easy to customize and tune for yourself? ...

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That and the affordable price points, IMO ... o'course, for many, the EBR Look is also a major factor.

The Exile said:

When you buy a rifle in the US there are a few options but when talking about things that fire 5.56 or similar typically most people will direct you to one of dozens of different AR choices. There's a few competitors out there like the AK 47/74 or things like the Tavor or the SCAR16.

I wanted to know because really I don't have the budget or the time to really go out and make a point to track down and rent all these different guns. Did the AR15 truly earn it's popularity by being the best of the best? Is it just because it's so easy to customize and tune for yourself? Are there guns that aren't really available on the general market (SA80, G36, FAMAS, etc.) that might be able to dethrone the AR if there was consumer versions available?

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The AR platform is to 223 as the 10/22 is to the 22 Rimfire.

Nothing else needs to be said....all the same conclusions are made....the same kind of people fawn over them, with the exception that there are a great many "factories" that make the AR, so you can get them across the entire "quality" range....going from wow...to oh. With 10/22 you can get about every part for said rifle from others then ruger.....but if you do go to ruger, you deal with their spotty quality and know going in you are going to start screwing parts on the thing....a little like AR owners, they just love to screw parts on it.

It is popular because of 'Merica F-yea brother. That is it, nothing more.....it is trendy. If it was not trendy there would have been dozens of people making them in 1980, but there was not.....why is that you think. Because everyone on the internet has told you that this is the greatest thing, you can do anything to it, there are tons of stuff available to "make it your own".....anyone see a 10/22 connection going here.

AR is what it is, and it has been taken from pure utility combat weapon to it can do anything.....again like Ruger, and even 1911.

I got my AR 100's of years ago, and really did not take it to the range back then....not because it was so trendy I got tired of the "iz dat 'a machine gun" And I had that in the army want me to show you a few things. No go away. Now they are like a belly button everyone has one and who cares.

I am the kind of person that will see the lemmings go one way and I will walk the other....and I don't care what it is, if it is harder, or more expensive.....I hate being just another guy with a trendy rifle.

One of the AR's greatest strengths is that it's an inherently accurate design. One would be hard pressed to come up with a semi-auto that shot better.
Generally, they shoot on par with bolt action rifles.

So are they worth checking out....sure, it is always best to make decisions based on real world facts, something that some people just can't do. The more you know the more you know.....there is no 1 trick pony.

AndyP said:

One of the AR's greatest strengths is that it's an inherently accurate design. One would be hard pressed to come up with a semi-auto that shot better.
Generally, they shoot on par with bolt action rifles.

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you owe me a keyboard.....don't make me laugh like during morning coffee.

I have used the M16A1 and the A2 in just about every environment form snow covered mountains to scorching deserts. It's been battle tested and proven it's self.
It is also a highly adaptable platform.
You can spend more money on other guns and not have half the versatility.

GunnyUSMC said:

I have used the M16A1 and the A2 in just about every environment form snow covered mountains to scorching deserts. It's been battle tested and proven it's self.
It is also a highly adaptable platform.
You can spend more money on other guns and not have half the versatility.

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True, and I imagine those are not the same as we are talking about here. Almost like saying hay dale jr. drives this chevy and look how great it is, so my chevy is just as great.....ahh no.

And you should also know it is not the answer to every question.....if it was then why is there X in inventory.

All I say is if you want a jack of all trades yet master of none, AR will work.....however you will find specific items that will do the job "better". And after you work up your one trick pony to do that one job better, something else goes away....nothing is free.

Now when the zombies attack.....and I think between RBG and Polisi I think they are working on it.....then having something where parts are going to be everywhere, boolits are everywhere then in those cases yes you would be hard to to better.....now if the zombies attack and you happen to be in one of the 'stans I would bet there is another two letter choice that would be better for the same reason.

Now if you want it just because of __________ cool beans, knock yourself out......but if you want it to do X, there is likely a better choice......now if you want to do X,Y,Z as well as A,B,L.....then it might be the best choice (in this country) for you to make....be it a cost reason (can't afford so many gunz) space issue (where am I going to put so many gunz) guberment issue (you don't need any gunz) or wife issue (hay honey you like it buy it.....oh wait that is my wife....you can't have that I need another 6 pair of shoes for my new dress and purse) *find new wife unless it is REALLY good and you have no backbone*

My thoughts on the AR.

You likely played with that stuff more then I did, we only got to play with them once and a while because of the goofy idea that....everyone needs to know how to shoot everything. No....no they don't.....and if it got to the point of that happening there are more issues then trying to teach some Lt. Col how to load a M2 again.

AndyP said:

. . . Generally, they shoot on par with bolt action rifles.

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You must have some terrible bolt action rifles.

AndyP said:

One would be hard pressed to come up with a semi-auto that shot better.

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Now that I'll grant you.

The "hard pressed" comment.....well yea as the AR platform has really killed anything else. What are your choices in a NEW sporting rifle......BAR....KA CHING.....if you want to go play army.....FAL? you get a fraken fal or KA-CHING again. The Rugers.....ahh why, more money and about the same....you also don't get access to any of those cool plastic mags that everyone drools over, or hanging an automatic butt scratcher off the thing is not really do-able like on the AR.....so why.

Lets see what else is "automatic".....you really don't have much choice....now on bolt rifles you have everything ranging from Browning to Tikka (to names as far apart in the ABC's that I could think of off the top of my head) Now why is that.....because there is still some innovation going on in the bolt world.....they are all a little different, all fit a little different, and the world is run just a little different to warrant the market of so many bolt guns.....if it was not why make the things.....so people can have tons of cash tied up in things people don't want to buy.....no matter what some people tell you people tend to buy what they want to buy if given a choice. In the automatic area there really is no choice.

Another reason I dislike mine.

I likely should dig it out pour some goop down its nose and stick it in the back of the safe again for another 10 years.

I build AR's for fun. About the only thing different in the M16 family and the AR15 is the fire control group. You can buy barrels that are better then what the military uses. Hell, there are better parts made for AR15's then what the military uses, you just have to be willing to spend the money.
FN builds M16s for the military and AR15s for the civilian market. The only thing different is the FCG.
It would be more like saying that Dale jr. drives a Chevy Pickup when off the track and I drive a Ford.

Including high parts availability and aftermarket support as reasons the AR became popular seems a little chicken or egg to me. I hear stories of Mosins being very available and I know there was a decent amount of aftermarket but that doesn't make them the most popular bolt rifle. There must be something about the AR design that drives that popularity. I'd guess it is a combination of modularity and vets already being familiar with the platform. Now that the platform is top dog we can enjoy all the things that come with it like aftermarket. Now excuse me while I finish putting together a parts list for my AR with a SCR lower and side charging upper...

GunnyUSMC said:

I build AR's for fun. About the only thing different in the M16 family and the AR15 is the fire control group. You can buy barrels that are better then what the military uses. Hell, there are better parts made for AR15's then what the military uses, you just have to be willing to spend the money.
FN builds M16s for the military and AR15s for the civilian market. The only thing different is the FCG.
It would be more like saying that Dale jr. drives a Chevy Pickup when off the track and I drive a Ford.

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True, key words "you can buy"....I tease a great deal about how easy it is to screw one together....but you know it is not that easy.....and while it is pretty Lego....you do have to know something to get one to work right. And that all parts are not equal.

Also the military has a very different "job" to do vs the guy wanting to poke holes in paper on Saturday once a month.....and what is "best" for one is not the "best" for the other. They are different. Now I am not sure if EVERYTHING is the same except for the fun button.....and I expect there are some changes for ease of manufacture/cost/ compliance with civil laws...bla bla bla.

Point is you can not go and say (at least that is my view) that a palmetto is the same league as FN.

After that we get really into the weeds, and I will shut up as I tend to kill threads....or get threads killed.

The op said what other things are there......well you could spend a month looking at all the different (JUST) 223 AR's out there, and they range from cheap to inexpensive (not the same) to very top shelf. And those no matter what are not going to equal a guberment item even minus the one set of parts....They are built to different specs, I don't know about FN....I guess they could make one exactly like the gov version, but I would doubt it is a hot seller as I would imagine it would cost a bit more then most people will pay, it would be a very narrow market, a little like the brownells retro stuff.....there is a small market that wants to pay the extra for that....pay the price of that "original" scope when you could take that same money and go much better.

That is my point....i hope.

somethingbenign said:

Including high parts availability and aftermarket support as reasons the AR became popular seems a little chicken or egg to me. I hear stories of Mosins being very available and I know there was a decent amount of aftermarket but that doesn't make them the most popular bolt rifle. There must be something about the AR design that drives that popularity. I'd guess it is a combination of modularity and vets already being familiar with the platform. Now that the platform is top dog we can enjoy all the things that come with it like aftermarket. Now excuse me while I finish putting together a parts list for my AR with a SCR lower and side charging upper...

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See I think that is false logic....you can't take something that was last made 80 years ago and go see look how popular the mosin is and parts are not everywhere....well duh, it was made by the billions but 80 years ago, not here, how many got destroyed....bla bla bla.

I really think a great factor is why it is popular is it is cool.....nothing past that, why cool....the army uses it, I can strap my flashlight laser range finder can opener and ball scratcher to it....ain't I neat.

I remember when you could buy them, but no one did.....now we need to look at what changed and why. I think part of it was the first ASW deal.....nothing will drive sales like saying you will never get this thing again. So that really pushed sales.....then the culture changed.....way back when, being in the army was still a dirty word....I remember back to the 80's and people saying why the hell you want to do that the army is full of drunks, druggies and can't do anything right....just look they can't even fly a helicopter and rescue our people. Our culture changed and military became a "good" thing....something to be proud of....those people age out with some cash in hand....heck AR's back then are more expensive then the rugers, now it is the other way around.....you wanted an AR because that is what you WANTED. You knew it....as gunny said it is close enough to what you knew to be seamless. I remember back in the early 90's buying surplus mags for $3 each at gunshows....that was about the most inexpensive thing you could go to....ruger mags always where expensive for some reason....guess supply and demand.

But something around the 90's turned the gun community onto the AR platform.....like you said I think it is a few things, but they can be boiled down to one word.....cool.

There was a brief moment (in the 1980's) when the Korean Daewoo K2 was price-competitive with the AR-15. AFAIK, this was the only time that a quality gun could claim that distinction. (IMO, the AR-180 was not a quality gun.) Unfortunately, the Daewoo was looked down upon at the time, and it didn't have enough time to become familiar to American shooters before import restrictions kicked in. Today, you can still find them on the aftermarket, but at $1,200 - $2,000, they are definitely not competitive.

No other gun today can compete with the AR-15 on both quality and price.

The tavor and SCAR aren't bad rifles, but they can't compete with the AR on price, ability to source parts, or really anything else.

Someone not long ago asked about semi-auto 556 platforms and I came up with a list for them:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/semi-auto-5-56-rifles.

<*(((>< said:

Beretta ARX 100
FN Scar 16
CZ 805 Bren
FN 2000
Keltec RDB
HK MR556A1
Steyr AUG
MSAR STG-556
Norinco 97NSR
Century Arms Golani Sporter Rifle in 556
VZ58
Saiga 556
ARES SCR
Bushmaster ACR (designed by MagPul as the ‘Masada’)

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I feel if one is going to have one 556 rifle, make it an AR15, hands down. The design was ingenious, the linear recoil is unparalleled for control, easy to manipulate, good ergos that can be tailored to an individual at relatively low cost, parts are plentiful and cheap, and one can change calibers in 10 seconds with another upper. The design has been battle tested for 50+ years all over the world, by different countries, and has been updated and improved along the way. There is no rival to it on the market currently.

Of course you'll be another lego user in a world of lego users, but there is a reason for that, in which all the haters of the AR don't want to talk about. Wild success and popularity isn't born out of failed and/or bad designs, but bad implementation can plague a good design (yes the Stoner system had it's early hiccups; which were significant has been said to have lead to soldiers deaths, not disputing that) but in an organic environment such as a theater of war its obvious design changes have to occur with experiences. I understand the mistrust of the Stoner design by someone who fought in Vietnam as they saw it's origins which were troubled, but I attribute that to the military R&D not doing their due diligence before fielding a new weapons platform. One has to think that there has been 50 years of improvement on this design that we are afforded in today's AR15. Success of a product at the level the AR15 is enjoying is because it flat out works, and works well.

I also posted in another thread how there are different categories of AR15's available to the commercial market.

One category is budget, which with the advent of CNC, economies of scale and wide spread acceptance of AR's in the commercial world, the budget category of AR's is more than suitable for the vast majority of civilians. They are best served by buying a good value AR from a reputable company, and spending the saved money on ammo, red dot and training. With this one can put rounds through the AR, find any assembly weaknesses, upgrade the parts and end up with a very reliable carbine that has been put through tests all while training with it.

Another category is one that places reliability above all else, these rifles don't necessarily shoot the tightest groups but come with finishes and materials that have great longevity and reliability.

Then you have the purpose driven rifles that are built from the ground up to serve a purpose: lightweight, extreme accuracy, heavy courses of fire, long range, CQB, takedown features to aid in storage of firearm in small spaces, suppressed use, restricted states, etc.

Like I said before, it is my belief currently there is no rival on the market today for semi auto 556, anyone who says otherwise more than likely has a personal bias against the platform. There are far too many pros to the AR platform that cannot be overlooked.