Red Flag Law

Would you favor a Red Flag Law as described if it helped to prevent further measures ?

  • yes

    Votes: 7 14.0%

  • no

    Votes: 43 86.0%
  • Total voters
    50
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SharpDog

SharpDog

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Please note that I have purposely left out any mention of political leanings or personalities, let's see how long we can keep it this way ...:)

I just heard this proposed (bipartisan), seems reasonable to me. It was a supposedly patterned after the Red Flag law in Indiana (Jake Laird Law)

Description of PROPOSED Red Flag Law (Not Jake Laird Law):
1. Only police can go and as for warrant
2. Hearing would be 7 days later
3. Defendant can attend and defend themselves
4. Police must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that defendant is a danger to themselves or the community
5. The results may be forwarded to NICS to prevent future gun purchases

The key here is the 'beyond a reasonable doubt' level for the burden of proof.

THIS IS NOT IN THE ORIGINAL LAW

Jake Laird Law:

https://www.in.gov/isp/files/Jake_Laird_Law_Summary.pdf

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/116/hr2786

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/116/hr2786/text
 
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That law sounds workable, although "beyond a reasonable doubt" in law is usually determined by a jury. I believe that "have sufficient probable cause" would be more appropriate, and still much stricter than "a preponderance of the evidence." :cool:
 
IF we could write in a concrete way that someone can protest if they are on the list and have their day in court, I could support it. Just because every all non criminals can buy a gun doesn't mean they should.

That said, I can see this easily abused by ex- girlfriends/boyfriends/ someone with a grudge. There will have to be a balancing act where you protect the individual's rights and also protect the rights of the public.

Until I see a proposal that guarantees due process, I'll vote no.
 
OP said : 1. Only police can go and as for warrant

I would be curious about that process, Who decides? What level?
 
1. Only police can go and asK for warrant. — Warrant? File for a hearing you mean? But presumably anyone can ask the police for it.
2. Hearing would be 7 days later — 1) That's plenty of time to kill whoever asked you to be seen. Instant presumptive removal of dangerous items or not? 2) Who pays for having more judges, buildings with hearing rooms, to assure not "speedy" but 7 days specifically?
3. Defendant can attend and defend themselves — Must, or CAN? Because I don't want to go in front of a judge alone? And not sure that meets due process to not have representation. And we're back to "who pays for this?" Public defenders need a big overhaul anyway, this just adds to their burden if you don't fix it.
4. Police must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that defendant is a danger to themselves or the community — Said above, true. It's not a conviction, it's an administrative hearing, etc. etc.
5. The results may be forwarded to NICS to prevent future gun purchases — MUST BE. Not May Be. Require it to be submitted to the FBI. They feed their data to NICS, which they administer.

And then... what? Administrative hearing, but how long is the removal in force? How often do you need to revisit, go back to the judge? I would presume it has to be like family court, and no more than 6 months, but most judges want to see you at 30 or 90 days to discuss things. What is the limit on what the judge can order? Is it "he seems okay" or do you get psych evals? Can this be enough to compel you to go get treatment, or is it limited to firearms ownership alone (so: don't do what they say, okay but no guns)? What about other weapons, knives, bombs, fertilizer, driving large vehicles? What about security clearances, jobs as police etc? What about people armed for a living?

I can go on.
 
Middletown said:
OP said : 1. Only police can go and as for warrant

I would be curious about that process, Who decides? What level?
Click to expand...

I am just reporting it as I heard it. So I have to assume it's face value. I would accept the definition in post #2. I'm not going into the p[ossibilities of the 'would ensure no further measures are taken' ...

If you are of the opinion that you don't believe that, slippery slope, etc I can accept that. Or if you have a mind to 'not give another inch' ... I can accept that as well.

But this is about due process so comparing it to UK laws, FISA laws, etc it totally non-sequitur.
 
shoobe01 said:
1. Only police can go and asK for warrant. — Warrant? File for a hearing you mean? But presumably anyone can ask the police for it.
2. Hearing would be 7 days later — 1) That's plenty of time to kill whoever asked you to be seen. Instant presumptive removal of dangerous items or not? 2) Who pays for having more judges, buildings with hearing rooms, to assure not "speedy" but 7 days specifically?
3. Defendant can attend and defend themselves — Must, or CAN? Because I don't want to go in front of a judge alone? And not sure that meets due process to not have representation. And we're back to "who pays for this?" Public defenders need a big overhaul anyway, this just adds to their burden if you don't fix it.
4. Police must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that defendant is a danger to themselves or the community — Said above, true. It's not a conviction, it's an administrative hearing, etc. etc.
5. The results may be forwarded to NICS to prevent future gun purchases — MUST BE. Not May Be. Require it to be submitted to the FBI. They feed their data to NICS, which they administer.

And then... what? Administrative hearing, but how long is the removal in force? How often do you need to revisit, go back to the judge? I would presume it has to be like family court, and no more than 6 months, but most judges want to see you at 30 or 90 days to discuss things. What is the limit on what the judge can order? Is it "he seems okay" or do you get psych evals? Can this be enough to compel you to go get treatment, or is it limited to firearms ownership alone (so: don't do what they say, okay but no guns)? What about other weapons, knives, bombs, fertilizer, driving large vehicles? What about security clearances, jobs as police etc? What about people armed for a living?

I can go on.
Click to expand...

Those are all great questions, any answers ? Please see post #2 for an example.
 
Due process? You mean fair treatment through the normal judicial system, especially as a citizen's entitlement. Who decides the Due Process? Seriously dude, let's learn from the mistakes of others without injecting words (non-sequiter) that most people don't understand without Googling.
 
george29 said:
Due process? You mean fair treatment through the normal judicial system, especially as a citizen's entitlement. Who decides the Due Process? Seriously dude, let's learn from the mistakes of others without injecting words (non-sequiter) that most people don't understand without Googling.
Click to expand...

ok ... non-sequitur = off topic

as far as who decides the due process, you'll just have to read more closely. the folks that have answered so far understand.
 
shoobe01 gave a better question than I did.

This is a trap! Does it also transfer civil liability to whoever didn't report someone they should have known was a danger? What about civil liability to to any government agency that should have reported and didn't? Government agency's don't like to have to be responsible.
 
Middletown said:
shoobe01 gave a better question than I did.

This is a trap! Does it also transfer civil liability to whoever didn't report someone they should have known was a danger? What about civil liability to to any government agency that should have reported and didn't? Government agency's don't like to have to be responsible.
Click to expand...

no
 
Common law, Due process, Torts etc have taken over Constitutional Law.
You can legally carry a small bladed pen knife in theUK, so long as the blade does not lock. However youcannot carry it for the purpose self defence. Otherknives can be carried but you need a good reason. ... No, you cannot carry any weapon of any description forself defence in the UK.Jul 27, 2017

Will I Still Go To Jail If My Homicide Case InvolvedSelf-Defense? If someone tries to violently harm you or your family, you have the right to fight back to protect yourself. ... However, if you can prove in a court of law that the force you used was necessary to repel the aggression, you may not have to go to jail.
www.attorneys.com › homicide › wi...


So the Victim has to prove his use of force, basically it is a privilege to defend yourself in the UK.

That's a slippery slope my friend.
 
george29 said:
Common law, Due process, Torts etc have taken over Constitutional Law.
You can legally carry a small bladed pen knife in theUK, so long as the blade does not lock. However youcannot carry it for the purpose self defence. Otherknives can be carried but you need a good reason. ... No, you cannot carry any weapon of any description forself defence in the UK.Jul 27, 2017

Will I Still Go To Jail If My Homicide Case InvolvedSelf-Defense? If someone tries to violently harm you or your family, you have the right to fight back to protect yourself. ... However, if you can prove in a court of law that the force you used was necessary to repel the aggression, you may not have to go to jail.
www.attorneys.com › homicide › wi...
Click to expand...

This is the most detailed example of UK knife law I could find:

https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives

If they do have due process for you to get your knife back than I am wrong. However if it was already a 'legal knife' it would not have been seized so due process would assumedly be that you bring an accurate ruler ?
 
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This is a serious question and I do not know the answer.

Would a Red Flag law as you have proposed likely have prevented any of the recent mass shootings we are all familiar with?
 
The problem is that under the US Constitution we are all assumed to be innocent until proven guilty. No other country that I know of has this written in their Constitution (if they even have one). In the UK and unfortunately also in the US, common law and Tort has removed that protection. Just ask OJ, he was successfully sued in a Tort even though he was found not guilty. You may not like OJ, you may believe he did it, but it was never proven, and yet he lost to a Tort.
This is in essence what a Red Flag Law is.
 
george29 said:
Common law, Due process, Torts etc have taken over Constitutional Law.
You can legally carry a small bladed pen knife in theUK, so long as the blade does not lock. However youcannot carry it for the purpose self defence. Otherknives can be carried but you need a good reason. ... No, you cannot carry any weapon of any description forself defence in the UK.Jul 27, 2017

Will I Still Go To Jail If My Homicide Case InvolvedSelf-Defense? If someone tries to violently harm you or your family, you have the right to fight back to protect yourself. ... However, if you can prove in a court of law that the force you used was necessary to repel the aggression, you may not have to go to jail.
www.attorneys.com › homicide › wi...


So the Victim has to prove his use of force, basically it is a privilege to defend yourself in the UK.

That's a slippery slope my friend.
Click to expand...

Yes the slippery slope argument, that is why I stipulated it would prevent further laws ...

It's just a poll question folks, take it as wyou will. Any and all criticism is welcomed, especially if it furthers discussion.

Just please keep politics out of it.

btw I'm pretty thick skinned and have a good sens of humor LOL :)
 
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