How would you handle this one?

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I didnt read all of the replies.

Its hilariously ironic putting myself in this situation as I work at a lumber mill so wood is something I come by on a regular basis.

Its certainly not worth shooting someone over, at least in my case.

I also dont understand why if the guy had a CCW it wasn't on his person. This is something I'll never understand. You're not "carrying" if the gun isn't on you.

Not that it would've been warranted in this situation anyways. Give the perps the lumber and if they wanted more or pressed the situation, well he didnt have his gun on him anyway so I guess the conversation stops there.
 
I will circle back around to the OP and answer what I personally would have done. For the most part I try to be pleasant to people, or at least polite. The two men may have been making a threat or it could have been an ill-advised attempt at humor. I would treat it as the latter, but say something like, 'well, in that case I'd have to take a video and call the cops". That's a threat that they absolutely know you can back up because virtually every human over the age of six that you run into has a cell phone on them. If they escalate things I'd have to play it by ear but I can absolutely say their first move towards my trailer of cedar would not be met by my drawing down on them. I like money just fine but I really dislike the idea of killing someone over it even if I'm legally in the right. But by making a solid show of resisting I will have plenty of evidence on the many CCV surely to be clustered around the station that I was not the aggressor.

And again I will also loop back around to the concept of can vs should. There are likely a lot of situations that you can legally shoot someone that you morally can't (or at least can't and make any pretense to being a moral human being). We all will draw that line based on our character so I can't say where you will draw yours. But I can't stress how little interest I'd have in shooting someone dead if I could avoid it.

Lastly it comes down to the AOJ triangle. Two of them and one of me? Okay, maybe a disparity of force but I'm 5'9" and 225 lbs. Do they have the means to steal it? Will they grab 1,000 lbs of lumber and ride off on a bicycle? Do they appear to have the means and intent to take the trailer and truck, too? Will they persist in trying if I verbally and/or physically resist? While I have no desire to kill a man over a few thousand dollars I have even less desire to be killed over the same.
 
I didnt read all of the replies.

Its hilariously ironic putting myself in this situation as I work at a lumber mill so wood is something I come by on a regular basis.

Its certainly not worth shooting someone over, at least in my case.

I also dont understand why if the guy had a CCW it wasn't on his person. This is something I'll never understand. You're not "carrying" if the gun isn't on you.

Not that it would've been warranted in this situation anyways. Give the perps the lumber and if they wanted more or pressed the situation, well he didnt have his gun on him anyway so I guess the conversation stops there.
Some people wear their carry piece in a position that is difficult to reach while driving, that might be why he had it under the seat. Personally if mine would be under the seat I'd never be able to get it out in time.
 
I agree with your sentiment, but some of the things that are options in this post were not really options at the point in time of the event. Namely, he did not have a cell phone handy, nor did he have pepper spray. Now I know he should have had both of these things, but he didn't. Its a prime example of how being prepared is a good thing, but there have been times I am sure when any of us have not been prepared.

Given the obvious limitations imposed by his lack of preparedness, what should he have done short of pulling a gun?

I think you could also make a case that even if he did have a cell phone, pulling it out and trying to place a call in the middle of a confrontation where one party is threatening a felony might be a distraction that would put you at a disadvantage.

Not being prepared significantly limits your options, that's why I make a point of being prepared.

I will leave my house without a gun before I will leave it without a phone.

like I mentioned earlier I deal with Street Rats every night and almost everything I know about dealing with Street Rats I learned from not being prepared while dealing with Street Rats.

At work I am required to warn before calling the police, "I'm sorry guys this is private property. I need you to either comply with whatever company rule you're not complying with or leave or I'm required to call the police."

If they do anything but comply immediately after I issue that warning I pull out my phone and start dialing. If they make any attempt to stop me that's another bright line and you go to the next tool in the box.

I had a run-in with a raving Maniac one morning. He told me he owned everything from the south end of Colorado Springs to the New Mexico border and that he was going to kill me if I didn't get off his land. I was standing there uniform with a duty belt wearing body armor very visibly armed and he still said he was going to kill me.

I gave him the you need to leave speech and he started digging in his shopping cart. while I was on the phone with the police he pulled out an axe. I could have dropped him then and there and I would have walked, instead I pulled out my OC spray. When he saw me start shaking that up he dropped that ax like it was hot. The cops showed up a couple minutes later and took him to detox.

Sometimes nothing works and you have to fight. It is what it is.
 
What would he have explained? That 2 suspicious men approached threatening him with a felony,
They had not so threatened, and it would be difficult to support such a claim.

...and he drew his gun to protect himself from what he perceived as an imminent threat?
His personal perception would not support a defense of justification very well.

And at that point, the defender would surely have committed a felony,

Ok so to wind this up, when the street thugs said, "what if we just take it", the owner of the wood produced the Glock and told them it would be a bad idea. They mumbled something, backed away, and moved on.
The defender was lucky.

But there are a lot of other places where the owner of the cedar could have been charged, especially if the "street thugs" had called 911 first.
That's true in any US jurisdiction.

Attorney Andrew Blanca tells us that most of his cases involve just such a situation.

He and the clients' lead attorneys usually win--they are very selective in the cases they accept.

But they could buy an awful lot of board feet of cedar for the legal expenses

To clarify state law here, you can use threat of force, force, and deadly force if someone is committing a felony involving...
Which they were not doing.

...a felony involving your "habitation", which is further defined as your home, your work, and your transportation.
Place of work, and in all jurisdictions, your occupied vehicle, and they have to be attempting to break in before deadly force is justified.

think you'll find that at no point have I suggested shooting anyone. An assumption seems to have been made somewhere in this thread that I'm advocating using lethal force in a situation where it is neither justifiable nor excusable. And that's not the case.
No.

I interpreted your statement as having to do with exposing or mentioning the firearm.

So just to be clear, I already made my position to the OPs situation clear. It's up thread, and it involves driving away quickly.

Driving away is what you meant by "act aggressively"?

They have asked what if they steal the wood, which in that setting means they are at least thinking of committing a felony.
Actually, no.

And what if they were?
 
Thanks for your critique of what happened Kleanbore. How would you have handled it though?
 
Thanks for your critique of what happened Kleanbore. How would you have handled it though?
I would have entered the truck, locked the doors, and started the engine.

My intent would have been to drive elsewhere.

Had they tried breaking the glass, to Plan B,
 
@Kleanbore , you're going to have to reread this post of mine where I explain the origins of this whole disagreement between us:

Okay first of all let's establish where my comments have come from.

The OP did not give enough information in the initial post for me to make an assessment. I said so.

He asked what more information I wanted.

I listed some important factors that would effect decision making. Then I created two extreme examples from the original scenario using different criteria from my own list. I did this to show that without enough details two people could imagine two very different scenarios, and the resulting action/reaction to each could be very different.

And in one of those scenarios - the one where I depict the truck driver to be alone, in an isolated place, at night, where there are no passers-by and no cameras, and with two men positioning themselves tactically and looking at him as prey - I advocated that he "act aggressively".

What you and Kleanbore both have taken issue with has been your interpretations of that phrase, and/or comments I have made in response to views stemming from that hypothetical. Not from the actual situation the OPs friend found himself of in.

So just to be clear, I already made my position to the OPs situation clear. It's up thread, and it involves driving away quickly.

Regarding my stance on my own hypothetical version of the scenario: I have intentionally been vague because I try not to advocate for actions which are illegal. I have still not actually advocated for brandishing (even under the pretext of that hypothetical). So whilst your statement above is not in question by me, I never said I'd do it. Nor did I say anyone else should do it. Only that it has been done, and it could stop the escalation of a threat. And that this action, whilst illegal, could possibly, in certain circumstances, be a better course of action than doing nothing and letting the wolves circle closer where any advantage is lost.

So that's where all this has come from.

Maybe then you can understand that when I said "act aggressively" it was in response to one of two hypothetical scenarios I intentionally created, based on the OP (which I considered too vague). Which I created to illustrate my belief that more details were required.

Once the OP clarified the details, I responded to that scenario. Where I advocated for driving away.

If you reread all my posts throughout the thread, you'll see that your issue with my comment to "act aggressively" is not actually based on the OP's scenario as it happened. I believe you have picked it out without fully comprehending the context, and made a meal out of it. If you wish to discuss it further, start a new thread about it and invite me to join you there. But if you can now see where that comment came from, I think you can agree with me that this is getting out on a tangent. And it's not really relevant to the thread.
 
you're going to have to reread this post of mine where I explain the origins of this whole disagreement between us:
I understood perfectly.

If you reread all my posts throughout the thread, you'll see that your issue with my comment to "act aggressively" is not actually based on the OP's scenario as it happened. I believe you have picked it out without fully comprehending the context,...
The scenario does not differ. You have presented a particular description:

"...in one of those scenarios - the one where I depict the truck driver to be alone, in an isolated place, at night, where there are no passers-by and no cameras, and with two men positioning themselves tactically and looking at him as prey -"
None of that would obviate the need for a defender to meet all of the required elements of a legal defense of self defense, by one bit.

In fact, "acting aggressively" would destroy any such defense.

Yes, it is very relevant to the thread.
 
That should do it. If anyone has anything thoughtful and relevant to add, send one of the mods a PM.
 
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