subgun techniques

Chuck Taylor was a good subgun guy but he retired from active training. Phil Singleton (SAS/ HK shooting school) is another old school subgun guy. I'm sure Gunsite would be a good choice but I never took a subgun class from them. Shooting a subgun is like shooting pistol, watch the front sight, it moves around a lot.

Each subgun has unique characteristics that you have to learn. If you're a MP5 guy and then you go to use say a M3/A1 you often find that your MP5 trigger technique will result in "I pulled the trigger but nothing happened" on a grease gun. Mini Uzis with either an open or closed bolt shoot differently.

https://www.philsingleton.com/

https://www.gunsite.com/

They are all a little different, but the technique is really the same for all of them.

You shoulder the gun as you normally would, and shoot just over the top of the sights. Its basically "point and click" and a quick burst.

The trick too is not to "try" and hold the gun on target, but to relax, and "ride the gun", and run it like a high-pressure hose, and just keep coming back to where you want the rounds to go. Once you get to understand that, and see how it works, full mag dumps are easy to keep on target at realistic ranges. Not that full mag dumps are how you would shoot the gun, but that will show you that the gun is easily controlled and easily kept on target.

If you try and force it, and hold the gun on target, it will tend to run up and off to the side of the primary hand thats holding it.

If you try to use the sights, you will get lost in trying to do that (you cant) and not likely hit what youre aiming at with anything beyond the first round. If you look over the top of the sights, and focus on the target, making good, fast hits is easy.

You also have to be realistic in your distances and its use. Other than maybe suppressing fire en mass, this is a close range weapon and think of as you would a shotgun loaded with buck. Beyond those ranges, aimed, single shots would be the norm.

Even with guns that are open bolt, FA only, single shots are are still easy, once you know the trigger, and once you get used to the bolt moving when you let the shot off. 100 yard, single shots, with fairly good precision are very doable, from things like an MP40, M45, STEN, ect.

Sterling is even better than Sten in subgun drills; with a bit of practice it shoulders naturally and fluidly,

Both Uzi and MP5 skip the open bolt issue; both benefit from a fixed stock, too.

I had an SWD M11/9mm "MAC" for about 25 years. Had a boatload of rounds through it and actually cracked the upper and had to replace it pretty early on because of some hot surplus Spanish SMG ammo.

They really aren't hard to shoot with and you use the same technique, they just run a bit faster than other things.

This is one of the last targets I shot with it prior to selling it off back when Obama got in. What you're looking at is two, 25 round "mag dumps" at ten yards. That equates to 50 rounds, two pulls on trigger, in about 3 seconds.




One of our little matches we used to do when a couple of us would get together, was a paper plate at 10 yards, and you had to dump the mag into it. Whoever had the most rounds on the plate won. If all the rounds were on the plate, then the smallest group won. A lot of times, it came down to measuring.

Once you learn to ride the gun and shoot over the sights, at the distances involved, it's easy to just watch where your "spraying the hose".

I have semi auto 8” and 4” MPX. They have the same aimpoint micro that my ARs use. Just out of familiarity, I shoulder and shoot them the same as an AR. Might be a better way but so far that works well.

taliv said:

i really haven't seen anything new in the past 20 years.

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There is the Ruger PC-9, and the Sig MPX is new-ish

taliv said:

"how do you hold it?" shoulder the tiny stock or brace like a rifle? do people still push them out tensioned against a carry strap?

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"Back in the day" when the MP5 was still one of the tools available to us in the arms room, is was used in the same manner as the drills and engagement techniques as the M4. CAR-15, etc. In my experience, it was utilized in semi-auto only- others units/agencies used full auto or some type of burst configuration, I'm sure. In fact, I wished mine didn't have full auto, because I have a "heavy thumb" and sometimes ended up hitting the selector too hard and bypassing semi on engagements. As far as pushing the weapon out to brace on the sling, that was a technique I used with the SMG and carbine when wearing a gas mask.
The MP5 and similar weapons are largely a thing of the past in the US mil. By 2006, they were mostly collecting dust and in storage in the part of the arms room with the foreign and obsolete weapons used for training (AKs' uzis, G3's, etc.) There is limited use of the HK MP7 in Special Operations units. I never messed with one. Although, I would have been grateful to have a MP7 or FN P90 when I was deployed as a PDW during movement when I was working in a sniper role- weapons like that could be easily carried during a foot movement, and then stowed in a rucksack once I got to my final position. The MP5 and its ammo don't work well for this purpose due to the combined weight of the ammo and mags, and the lackluster performance of 9mm. That weight penalty was better used to invest in more water being carried.

waterhouse said:

I have semi auto 8” and 4” MPX. They have the same aimpoint micro that my ARs use. Just out of familiarity, I shoulder and shoot them the same as an AR. Might be a better way but so far that works well.

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I think with anything, shouldering and shooting is the only way to go, especially if you actually want to hit something.

Just because the gun might have a folding or collapsing stock, in no way means thats how you should be shooting it. For most of them, that feature is there to make the gun more compact during transport, not as a shooting mode. The advantage the AR type rifles have with the slider is, you can adjust the LOP for better fit, so there is more functionality there.

Guns like the MP5, or any of the others with the grip at the rear of the receiver, are better suited to shooting without the stock, if you must, but still, you give up a lot in control and accuracy.

Using the sling to stabilize things does work, and can work fairly well with practice, but its still nowhere near as effective as using the stock.

Where things really get kind of squirrely, is with the guns that have the grip "amidships" in the reciever, like the MAC's, UZI's, etc. A stock is pretty much a must with them if you hope to have any control.

When you try and fire them without the stock, the mass of the bolt coming back over top of the grip and into the rear of the receiver, makes the gun want to rotate about the grip, tending to bring the muzzle up and back towards the shooter. The stock gives a good anchor point that stops that tendency.

One other thing with the MAC's too, is that silly strap. You might as well just throw that away. Its friggin dangerous!

Youre much better off with a good, two-handed, pistol-type grip on the gun. Its much more secure and offers much better control. A muzzle extension or suppressor also give you something to hold on to, but quickly get hot.

I think a lot of the misconceptions and misunderstandings with these guns is simply a lack of understanding, experience, and realistic training with them. Lets face it, its not something a lot of people have exposure too, and even then, many of those issued them, really werent taught to shoot them, and when they were appropriate to be used in that manner.

Anyone who has shot them, even with just basic exposure, knows that what you see in the movies isnt anything close to what reality is. Just like a shotgun, you need to aim at what you intend to shoot, and shoot it. Pick the target and shoot a quick, short burst into it. Just pointing in the general direction and spraying from the hip, isnt going to give you results, beyond luck anyway.

Those 6" to 10" or so wide "stitches" you see made in the movies, in walls etc, when someone is shooting/sweeping the gun, in real life leave gaps between rounds that you could drive a semi through, and not those nice, tight "stitched" lines you see on the screen.

If youre to the point of shooting the gun like that, I would say it was an act of desperation and loss of control that will give you basically no results. If you shoot the gun as Ive described above, you will put more of a shotgun "buckshot" pattern into the target youre "shooting", and actually make good hits on it, as opposed to "shooting at" something, and just letting the rounds fly. If "spray and pray" is a valid description of anything, this would be it.

Here is the sling assist method which I learned from a S.A.S. trained Swedish SWAT team.


This is from WW2 Marines.

https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/Snap Shooting_1944.pdf?token=AWzz_pKIzz943TQR9M94PCN1tfrBSsVQAyOdWpCBYYOgOjnm1Qxy3w975Z5KOgMLVK_BHUWxb4oSu8t35D_P3PN4dnzBsh56HGB7XSrIViRKzWEkbB2876vWNKO_F8TMxPDVxmne987ykMee1goLrcZwEPzMnnJI4gaRYzTOTcu6vMHDpAOkhoS9_AcMIHznuEglr1tHle1uxlQCBkBs99gN
With short stocked sub guns such as the M 3 they taught to place the retracted stock in the pit of your stomach.

I think one thing you need to keep in mind here with the folding/retractable stocks is, their actual use vs their movie/TV use.

If you go back through the old combat footage and pics we all seen over the years, most of those in
actual combat, that were using these types of guns, had the stocks fully deployed. I think most knew, that if they wanted to hit anything, they needed the stock to have the best chance at doing so.






The proper way to hold the STEN here too, by the way...



Even Churchill knew what was up.


You can usually tell, pretty much right off, if someone knows whats up, just by how they handle the gun when its handed to them or they hand it to you.

Open bolt guns can be, and are, very confusing, to those who are not familiar with them. Which these days, is pretty much everyone.

Something to consider, on an open bolt gun, "bolt back and open", is not "safe". Its ready to fire.

Ever try explaining to a know it all RO thats freaking out that "open" is not "safe"?

He also couldnt get it into his head, that you had to remove the mag, "before" you lowered the bolt.

IME, FA can be a waste of ammunition without judicious use of the trigger..

FL-NC said:

"Back in the day" when the MP5 was still one of the tools available to us in the arms room, is was used in the same manner as the drills and engagement techniques as the M4. CAR-15, etc. In my experience, it was utilized in semi-auto only- others units/agencies used full auto or some type of burst configuration, I'm sure.

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I used to live in the Pinehurst/Southern Pines area. Quite a few of my neighbors were 7th Grp SF. They liked the MP5 based on its ergonomics. Or the controls are under the thumb.

SF are pretty slick or when they throw a party; they invite the neighbors..

taliv said:

that's interesting. despite full auto being lots of fun, when i had my registered lower, i was always faster with aimed single shots and controlled pairs, 3gun style than holding the trigger down. but one rifle round is way more effective terminally than one pistol round, so given that pistol rounds are a lot easier to control and less effective, i sort of assumed all the mil/leo types would do some flavor of burst. nfa is why i put off learning them even though i've owned several. but if you're really saying you prefer semi, i'd like to understand why.

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The only real advantage to the pistol caliber guns is the selector, and the ability to shoot bursts. Other than that, they are a pistol caliber gun.

Prior to personal armor being so readily available, they had more of a place. I think these days, any of the select-fire, or even just SA 5.56 guns, like the AR "pistols" or others, just make more sense.

With any of the select-fire guns, once you get the trigger down, and are used to shooting them, without having to actually think about shooting them, I think a burst on things up fairly close, is quicker than trying to do the same in SA. Anything farther out, I agree, single shots.

Once you know the trigger too, you can usually (things with the high cyclic rates, aside) leave the gun on FULL, and have both bursts or singles when you need it.

Like anything else, its just time behind the trigger in practice.

taliv said:

but if you're really saying you prefer semi, i'd like to understand why.

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Semi is what is we used on the M4 and similar weapons, so first, consistency. Second, you are responsible for everything that comes out of the end of your weapon. 1 squeeze = 1 shot = 1 hit keeps everything in perspective,. Also, remember that in the reality, you will very likely NOT be engaging stationary hostiles in a "squared up" posture like a silhouette target- they will likely be partially obscured by some kind of cover, using a human shield, etc.

TikkaShooter said:

I used to live in the Pinehurst/Southern Pines area.

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Me too.

FL-NC said:

Me too.

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In the sixties, I trained at Bragg.

My daughter lives there now and it has really, really changed since I left and not for the best.

Jeff White said:

Neither of these are applicable to a civilian self defense scenario.

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Those are basically military applications.

Equivalent civilian use would basically be that of a shotgun.