shooting through a window

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In light of the Jersey City kosher grocery store attack, I have been thinking about what an armed customer might do in such a case. In Jersey City the BGs started firing from outside the store before coming in. In my (tiny) local store the exterior wall facing the parking lot has large windows all the way across, but the aisles are parallel to the windows, so a person could use the end of preferably the first one for concealment in order to fire back. I vaguely remember a thread here about shooting through a car window, saying one has to aim differently in that case. (Which I should go back and find because the details didn't stick with me.) I'm wondering whether there are any issues with shooting through a regular plate-glass window. (No idea whether they have security film, which I know doesn't stop a bullet but I guess might have some effect.)
 
Good question, old lady new shooter. I ponder the same thing. To be honest, I mostly think about what I would do if someone started shooting while inside and I was there but now I will add shots being fired outside-in to the equation.
 
Shooting through a car window is different than glass at a storefront for example. Car windows are thicker, designed not to shatter in the event of an accident, and slanted for aerodynamics. Windows vary drastically where you are. In NY and NJ, double and triple paned glass are the norm to keep out the winter, whereas in the south they are unheard of.

Bullet construction matters more than the window. Shooting FMJ? Not a significant amount of deflection from the glass. A hollow point you still expect to expand in a soft target on impact? That is the real question.
 
Depending on what I had on me for firearm. I think the prudent thing would be to make the most of what I had on me count. In a situation where there are BG's shooting from outside into my place of business I would find cover for myself with a good vantage point of the entrance, call 911 and help ensure other patrons, workers, etc. are behind cover and let them shoot, at the point they enter make my shots count.

I feel trying to return fire through a store front has the possibility of myself being out of ammo by the time it is needed most, when they have entered.

But to try and answer your question in light of physics the more perpendicular the bullet strikes the glass the less errant the shot will be as it leaves the glass. So if your bullet strikes the window at the same level as your muzzle it is most likely going to travel in a straight path. This is all in a perfect world scenario, but bullets hitting media can do weird things.
 
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We did an extensive amount of testing with various 5.56 and 308 rounds on different types of glass, to include automobile, store front, paned glass, etc. There are so many variables intertwined (velocity, bullet construction, angles, etc.) that levels of consistency could not be set even under controlled conditions with these rifle calibers. Expect bullets and fragments to end up in unexpected places.
 
Another thing to consider is how close the BG is to the outside of the window. If the BG is right up close to the window (which likely is never the case) your bullet has a very good chance of hitting the target. If the BG is 10+ feet away any deflection from the glass will have more distance to the BG to cause a miss.
 
There are so many variables intertwined (velocity, bullet construction, angles, etc.) that levels of consistency could not be set even under controlled conditions with these rifle calibers. Expect bullets and fragments to end up in unexpected places.
This reflects my personal experience. A further note is that when I attended the 47th Infantry Division Sniper course way back in 1988 we were taught that for the best results to use two shooters to engage a target behind a plate glass window. The first shot to break the window followed up by a second shot a fraction of a second later to take out the target.
 
Posts #5 and Jeff White's post bear repeating... They're right on the money in my opinion. First off, someone shooting into a structure from outside probably has little chance of actually hitting something he (or she) is aiming at... All that deflection still means a very, very dangerous situation for those inside the structure... Taking cover and waiting until either the attack ends with no attempt to come inside by the shooter(s) -or doing the exact same thing while covering the likely point(s) for one or more assailants to enter is your best bet. Unless, somehow you're under fire with something as deadly (penetrating everything...) as a .50 cal... Thank heavens that sort of stuff hasn't happened yet (although it's common enough on today's battlefields...).

Jeff's instruction about carefully targeting an assailant that's behind glass is the only way to go if you really, really need to hit something behind glass that might deflect your first shot. The first shot breaks the glass exposing the target - the second is the one that has good prospects of success for well aimed fire...

I'm long out of carrying even a sidearm - and hope to spend my remaining years without ever raising my hand to another... Knowing how to respond though - the tactics needed.... is still, in my opinion - more than half the battle in any armed situation...
 
I'm long out of carrying even a sidearm - and hope to spend my remaining years without ever raising my hand to another... Knowing how to respond though - the tactics needed.... is still, in my opinion - more than half the battle in any armed situation...

Well said. All.

“It’s necessary to reject the idea that the world was made for man. It was not made for man more than for lions, eagles, or dolphins”. (Celso)
 
Thanks very much for all the responses.

Not sure there is anything in the store that would provide actual cover (as opposed to concealment), therefore people inside would be at risk of being shot even if BGs weren't specifically aiming at them. However, the idea of getting into position to take them out at the moment they enter makes a lot of sense. Next time I go there I will look carefully to see if there is a good location for this. (The part of the wall with the doors is not in a straight line with the part where the windows are, it's kind of diagonal, from memory I'm not sure what if any concealment would be available.) Of course, if BGs' fire leaves a decent-sized opening in the plate glass window while they are still outside, Plan A becomes a viable option again.
 
A further note is that when I attended the 47th Infantry Division Sniper course way back in 1988 we were taught that for the best results to use two shooters to engage a target behind a plate glass window. The first shot to break the window followed up by a second shot a fraction of a second later to take out the target.

This is how the sniper teams are suppose to do it. In training sessions we watched situations where this was not done with the result not being good for the hostages.

If you feel forced to shoot through glass window double tap.
 
I'd wait for them to be coming through the doorway. That is where shooting will have the best chance of taking them down.
Yep, and where the shooting will be more likely to be adjudged "reasonable" should things go poorly.
 
Yep, and where the shooting will be more likely to be adjudged "reasonable" should things go poorly.

Off the cuff that is correct; in addition, they are in a fatal funnel..

It is quite challenging to have a definitive answer when one doesn't know the lay of the land.
 
Unless they are very close to the window so that deflection is less likely to cause a miss I'd wait until they came through the door as others have suggested.

Now, if they've already shot the window out so that the glass is no longer a concern and I could see them clearly (and what was behind them) then I might take the shot if the circumstances warranted it.
 
Agree with those above. I've done some testing through glass and have had a "real world" shooting through glass. The best I can offer is that it is unpredictable. Sometimes the bullet goes straight through, other times it changes angles drastically.
 
Something I forgot to mention about engaging someone coming into a structure that needs to be stopped... My bible all those years ago (only read after I'd already been involved in my one and only shooting as a young cop...) was the book Street Survival... That book is well over forty years old now -but many of the tactics and situations it discusses are well applicable to situations an armed citizen might encounter on the street today (or in a convenience store or anywhere else in your day to day world).. I'd recommend that book to anyone wanting to improve their understanding of tactics at close quarters. I imagine you'd be able to pick up a used copy very cheaply if you looked... This book is not for kids at all (some pretty graphic photos, of officers who didn't make it) since it was intended for cops. This was long before the armed citizen movement ever came about....
 
This is how the sniper teams are suppose to do it. In training sessions we watched situations where this was not done with the result not being good for the hostages.

If you feel forced to shoot through glass window double tap.

Yes, but where does the first bullet go???
 
One of my brother officers got into a gun fight in a hardware store in lower Manhattan long ago when we still carried revolvers. One of his shots glanced off the solid glass front door, one was stopped short by a coiled garden hose.

S&W 2" Chief firing 158g jhp .38Spl. +P.

Fortunately, nobody hit. Unfortunately, not even the armed robber. lol
 
Getting into a gunfight armed with only a five shot belly gun... Not something I'd ever want to do... At least, that was my thought after carrying that exact model and load for quite a few years on an ankle holster off duty... Fortunately I never fired a single shot on the street with it. I sold it off and went to something a bit more substantial, but that was one of the themes of my 22 years on the job....

As I learned more (both from my experiences and from others...) I went through a variety of sidearms that were my personal weapons. My last years I made a point of always carrying the same weapon off duty as I did on-duty so I at least had a chance if the balloon went up. My last assigned weapon was a 40cal SigSauer... A bit bulky for off duty but do-able if you really really want to have a fighting chance on or off duty...
 
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