California Illegal Hunter Gets $20,000 Fine.

CraigC said:

Sorry but I think it's excessive.

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jmr40 said:

While I'm glad he was caught and punished I also think $20K is too much for the crime.

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I wonder if the fine had anything to do with the poacher's financial situation. While it may have been excessive for a 70 year old on fixed Social Security income, the dirtball may have well been a millionaire. This could have been a factor in what the Judge handed down since the rest of the sentence seemed fairly slight. Anything less may have not even been a slap on the wrist. Living in California and having the monies to own a ranch large enough to produce trophy deer means the guy was not a welfare case, nor the average Joe Smoe. maybe the Judge was telling him to maybe next time, go to a high fence ranch and pay for shooting a trophy standing next to the bait pile(cause you can obviously afford it) instead of poaching and stealing from the rest of us.

The article also says that other charges were dropped. Could have been a plea deal.

So if you're stopped for doing 10mph over the speed limit in a Ferrari your fine should be higher than the guy who does the same thing in a Datsun???

CraigC said:

Sorry but I think it's excessive. I'm not at all condoning it but people do a lot worse and get a lot less.

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Agreed.
I think it's a crappy thing to do and don't condone shooting deer out of season. There are plenty of deer and with just a little effort you can kill them legally. I killed 2 this year, one a very nice one, and I really didn't work that hard to do it.

However, in Arkansas some of the penalties for hunting violations are more costly than a DWI. DWIs kill innocent people every day. Why should shooting a deer an hour too late in the evening carry a similar penalty. It doesn't make sense.

I've long had poaching problems on our properties. For nearly 15 years the game cameras on one property showed nice bucks. Those bucks totally disappeared by end of September. Then last year game wardens disassembled a large poaching/spotlighting ring in that county. Now the big bucks are around in deer season.

That, coupled with the actions of a frustrated large landholder, stopped the poaching.

There's a huge difference between shooting a deer out of season, premeditated or not and other criminal acts that get little more than a hand slap.

I'm going to continue with the example I used before, the folks that decided to break into our house. One was on the run from the law for over a week, in MY boots. They got a year probation. No jail time. Prior to our break-in, they broke into the local funeral home and stole the copper out of the AC unit. A funeral had to be redirected to another town. No jail time. A year to the day after they broke into our home, they broke into nine businesses in one night. Still no jail time. This was 9yrs ago. He had to be murdered by a fellow criminal LAST YEAR for anything permanent to happen. How many people did he victimize before his end? Dozens? Hundreds?

I'm gong to be honest, a $20,000 fine is not going to break me financially. My wife would probably shoot me but it's not going to be a life-changing hardship. I still think it is ridiculous for the crime of shooting one deer out of season. For the average person, it is going to absolutely be a life-changer. It's going to be a permanent burden on the average household. So it is very odd to me that hunters and shooters are okay with such extreme penalties for shooting a deer out of season but have little to say about other crimes which seemingly go unpunished.

As I said before, I do not condone poaching. It should be a crime and it should be enforced. I know of one in particular (no longer with us) that should probably have been hung by his short & curlies but he shot hundreds of deer every year and let them lay. He shot them on property that was not his own (armed trespassing), from the friggin' highway (a crime in itself). In my opinion, that is a good example of someone who deserves a $20,000 fine AND jail time.

Since Paul brought up the subject of DUI's, I spent nine months going to court every month over that break-in. At that time, I was working 365 days a year so it was a hardship to spend all day in court every month. It was enlightening to say the least. I recommend everyone go and do it at least once. I got to watch the same POS's go in and out of the system over and over again. Mostly DUI's and drugs. The courtroom stank of people who did not bathe regularly. The consequences for their actions, apart from their decisions rendering their lives into walking catastrophes, was minimal. Which is why they were constantly in and out. Sorry but to lump the guy who shoots one deer out of season in with this crowd is just wrong. To label his crime worse and levy a hefty $20,000 fine when these drunks and druggies are walking free is just asinine.

My point is that this level of penalty is only acceptable because it's levied at hunters and poachers. If we're discussing how the punishment fits the crime it's only logical to compare this crime to other crimes.

Ohio bases fines for illegally taking a buck on the B&C point system. The higher it scores, the higher the penalty is assigned. While I agree that it makes for incentive to stop the trophy poachers, it places huge dollar value on specific deer, and punishes hunters who committed the same crime in drastically different ways. I usually go in the ODNR booth when I go to county fairs, or farm shows where they set up and there are always half a dozen mounts in there that led to fines over $10,000.I have never seen a doe on display listing what the penalty was. I always wonder how and if the money actually gets collected. Do you serve jail time if you can't pay your fine?

Given Ohio's system it doesn't surprise the buck being discussed here led to such a high fine. I am not sure that it is the best system to use, but I can't say I can have any better ideas. I guess I am ok with the huge fines, as long as discretion is used when assigning them to people. Making a mistake on the date, or the time, or hitting the wrong animal in a group are stupid mistakes to make, but shouldn't have the same life changing penalties as someone out deliberately poaching.

CraigC said:

So if you're stopped for doing 10mph over the speed limit in a Ferrari your fine should be higher than the guy who does the same thing in a Datsun???

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I don't really put shooting a deer out of season, over illegal bait and then forging legal documents, in the same category as going 10 MPH over the limit in a Datsun. Maybe you do. Seems many here think that crimes of poaching are not that serious. Few years back most folks thought the same about beating your wife, your kids or your dog. Odds are nowadays, if this article was about shooting a dog, folks would think $20,000 was too little. I sure the Judge knows more about the backstory of this case than any of us here. As I said before, the Judge may have used his discretion or the poacher may have agreed to the fine as part of the plea deal to get the other charges dropped. Comes down to dealing with the consequences of your actions....and it is just what the poacher now is doing.

Im my oppinion that is way over board for shooting a deer. This gilot got fined $20,000 for a killing a two hundred pound deer.

Remember a few years ago that illegal alein suposedly found a gun and shot Kate Stienly on a pier in California.

He was deported several time and walked away scott free.

Then there is Gary Ridgeway, raped and killed over forty-nine women and only got life in prison.

In my oppinion $1,500 and loss of hunting priviliges for five years or so would of been about right.

buck460XVR said:

I don't really put shooting a deer out of season, over illegal bait and then forging legal documents, in the same category as going 10 MPH over the limit in a Datsun. Maybe you do. Seems many here think that crimes of poaching are not that serious. Few years back most folks thought the same about beating your wife, your kids or your dog. Odds are nowadays, if this article was about shooting a dog, folks would think $20,000 was too little. I sure the Judge knows more about the backstory of this case than any of us here. As I said before, the Judge may have used his discretion or the poacher may have agreed to the fine as part of the plea deal to get the other charges dropped. Comes down to dealing with the consequences of your actions....and it is just what the poacher now is doing.

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You missed the point. The point was not equating poaching to speeding. The point was fining the guy in the Ferrari more than the guy in the Datsun, just because he seemingly 'has' more.

Whether or not you think it is right, you folks need to read this. The Guy knew what he was doing. He could have been, by law, fined $40,000. Sounds like to me, he got off light.

https://californiaoutdoors.wordpress.com/2017/10/12/californias-newly-enhanced-trophy-hunting-laws/

H&Hhunter said:

Just a quick moderator note here. On THR we do not use disparaging terms for states. We can hate the politics but we don’t insult the people who live there by using disparaging nick names for their state of residence.

Carry on.

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Sorry H&H. Changed it.

Lots of details may be missing here. Things like, how many prior offenses and maximum penalty by law,
Article said it was a misdemeanor and beyond the 20K fine an ankle monitoring is mentioned.

It's CA, sounds like the judge was making a political statement.

As far as speeding fines and what you drive, I know in Sweden they fine you according to your income. Which in a way makes sense. The fine is supposed to be a hardship to discourage you from speeding. Will a $250 fine mean anything to a millionaire or billionaire? Hit them with a hefty fine based on income and you'll get their attention, too.

Here's an article about a $100K+ fine in Finland. https://www.theatlantic.com/busines...nd-home-of-the-103000-speeding-ticket/387484/

I remember when I lived in NV and if you were caught taking deer or other game animal like that illegally, they would confiscate your gun, truck, fine you and you faced possible jail time.
There were some Marines years back who killed protected "wild" (actually feral) horses; they went to jail.
Different states have different rules. It's simple enough; follow the rules and regs in your state

Speedo66 said:

As far as speeding fines and what you drive, I know in Sweden they fine you according to your income. Which in a way makes sense. The fine is supposed to be a hardship to discourage you from speeding. Will a $250 fine mean anything to a millionaire or billionaire? Hit them with a hefty fine based on income and you'll get their attention, too.

Here's an article about a $100K+ fine in Finland. https://www.theatlantic.com/busines...nd-home-of-the-103000-speeding-ticket/387484/

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This is not a socialist European country. Personally, if the local cop stops me for driving 5mph over the speed limit or not coming to a complete stop, I don't want to have to show him my tax return so he knows how much money to extort from me. The idea of fining according to income is a very, very slippery slope. Traffic enforcement is mostly just a revenue stream. You've now flagged yourself and given your local agencies added incentive to stop you based on what you drive, rather than the infraction you may have committed. Think about it like this, 2% of the population earns 19% of the income in the US but pays 37% of the income tax. Sorry but this sort of thing reeks of Obama's divisive class war and that ain't freedom. A fine is for what you did, not for what you might do.

I guess a lot depends on where, and when you live. Where I live during the 1970's deer populations were low, bag limits were low, seasons short and someone cheating to kill a deer like that would have angered a lot of people. Wildlife officers pursued such things aggressively and most people would have wanted heavy fines to discourage others.

In 2020 deer are considered a nuisance due to all of the vehicle damage and injuries they cause, Insurance companies would have probably given the guy a pat on the back. Seasons are 5 months long, bag limits are large, baiting is now legal and most people here wouldn't care how or when someone killed that deer as long as it was on their own property. About the only game violations that anyone gets upset about are trespassing. Most people just don't care what you do on your own property, or property you have permission to hunt. Baiting has been legal in the southern 1/2 of the state for years, but was only legalized in the north a year or two ago. Mainly because everyone ignored the law and baited anyway.

I still think this is a case of an anti-hunting judge taking an opportunity to stick it to a hunter. I'd also bet there is an appeal and the fine reduced.

And FWIW I have a cousin who was working illegally as a guide in a Western state taking hunters into places where he shouldn't be. When he got caught his fine was a LOT more than $20K. And I had no problem with that based on the circumstances of what he was doing. This is different.

Thrre was a report one time of preole being pulled over for Dui's. They would stop newer high end cars that were 4 years old or older that should be paid off. If you got a dui charge they confiscated your car and they held auctions on these cars for more revenue besides your usual cost associated with a dui.
Older pos cars and newer cars were less likely to get pulled over for dui.

The pay more based upon income isn't fair and is
Dicrimination.
$20'000 is totally out of control. The guy shot a deer, if that deer was here in Washington State a cougar or an imported wolf would of had it for a snack.

A $500 fine and loss of hunting priliviges for a year or two would be a fair sentence for shooting a deer you just happen to come across But, baiting, and shooting a deer out of season maybe double the fine and increase the loss of hunting priviliges for ten years would good as well..

CraigC said:

This is not a socialist European country. Personally, if the local cop stops me for driving 5mph over the speed limit or not coming to a complete stop, I don't want to have to show him my tax return so he knows how much money to extort from me. The idea of fining according to income is a very, very slippery slope. Traffic enforcement is mostly just a revenue stream. You've now flagged yourself and given your local agencies added incentive to stop you based on what you drive, rather than the infraction you may have committed. Think about it like this, 2% of the population earns 19% of the income in the US but pays 37% of the income tax. Sorry but this sort of thing reeks of Obama's divisive class war and that ain't freedom. A fine is for what you did, not for what you might do.

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Sweden is a socialist country? You obviously know little about it to make a statement like that. It's a capitalist country that happens to have excellent health care and education programs, definitely not socialist.

From my 25+ trips there over the last 50 years I have a pretty good idea what their economy is like, and it ain't socialist.

I know northern Europe is touted by American socialists as utopia. Don't believe the hype.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Social_Democratic_Party

Their income tax is well over 50%.

https://tradingeconomics.com/sweden/personal-income-tax-rate

With government-funded, universal healthcare.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Sweden

And with income tax, social security, medicare, health insurance, and possibly college tuition, what percentage do you think the average taxpayer here is paying? Their universities are free.

No matter what, it's still a capitalist economy.