Garand History

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tark

tark

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Let's have a Garand history pop quiz. There were two distinct types of gas cylinders used on M-1s. We are all familiar with the gas port cylinders. There were variations of these like the narrow and wide front sight bases and modifications, like the saw cut alteration. The first pic is an average example of a gas port cylinder. Then there were the gas trap gas cylinders used on the early guns. There were four variations of these, each evolving a bit in the interest of efficiency of operation and ease of manufacture. The second pic is a gas trap cylinder

Can anyone name the variations and how they differed?
 

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There are actually three general types, the two you have pictured and the type that came in between them. This version only lasted from March 1939 to May 1940. As you can see the major difference is in how the sight is retained. The minor differences between the second and third type has to do with the ammunition, the first and second versions were optimized for M1 Ball, the third version was optimized for M2 Ball, the gas port was enlarged from 0.069" to 0.079"

iO9Hyk2.png

As to the gas trap cylinders, the differences are in how the lighting cuts are made, if made at all, and how close the cylindrical portion mates up with the front.
 
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lysanderxiii said:
There are actually three general types, the two you have pictured and the type that came in between them. This version only lasted from March 1939 to May 1940. As you can see the major difference is in how the sight is retained. The minor differences between the second and third type has to do with the ammunition, the first and second versions were optimized for M1 Ball, the third version was optimized for M2 Ball, the gas port was enlarged from 0.069" to 0.079"

View attachment 994005

As to the gas trap cylinders, the differences are in how the lighting cuts are made, if made at all, and how close the cylindrical portion mates up with the front.
Click to expand...
Prototype gas port cylinder not production run. Just like the .069 gas port hole in the barrel...prototype and they realized it was under powered...not changed for M2 ball but changed for reliability.
 
Jeremy2171 said:
Prototype gas port cylinder not production run. Just like the .069 gas port hole in the barrel...prototype and they realized it was under powered...not changed for M2 ball but changed for reliability.
Click to expand...
Sorry, Nope, Nada, Negatory, Nyet, Non, Nien, 不, chan eil, ne, and my favorite - qha.

That is not the way it is recorded in the report. (And, on the drawings.)
 
Jeremy2171 said:
Good...post them....

However one big flaw in your claim.... that cylinder and barrel weren't in production from March of '39 to May '40... just saying.
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Then tell us what did they put on the 33,000 rifles produced during that time frame?

Garand Deliveries, by month
March 1939 - 1,131
April 1939 - 810
May 1939 - 808
June 1939 - 1,337
July 1939 - 63 (probably the actual cut-over to the second pattern gas cylinder)
August 1939 - 1,912
September 1939 - 2,187
October 1939 - 2,400
November 1939 - 1,883
December 1939 - 2,274
January 1940 - 3,162
February 1940 - 3,279
March 1940 - 3,782
April 1940 - 5,026
May 1940 - 3,645

EDIT:
June 1940 - 4542
July 1940 - 5749
August 1940 - 1898 (And, judging from a 30% production drop in August 1940, I figure that is when the third pattern front end cut-over was.)
September 1940 - 8186

The drawings are available on-line, that's where I got all my copies of the three different type of front end, and the term "Released for Production" means exactly what it sounds like it means.

Ref:
"New Front End Assembly for the U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30, M1," Infantry Board, 1 December 1939
"Report of Test of New Front End Assembly for the U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30, M1," Infantry Board, 27 October 1939
 
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lysanderxiii said:
Then tell us what did they put on the 33,000 rifles produced during that time frame?

Garand Deliveries, by month
March 1939 - 1,131
April 1939 - 810
May 1939 - 808
June 1939 - 1,337
July 1939 - 63 (probably the actual cut-over to the second pattern gas cylinder)
August 1939 - 1,912
September 1939 - 2,187
October 1939 - 2,400
November 1939 - 1,883
December 1939 - 2,274
January 1940 - 3,162
February 1940 - 3,279
March 1940 - 3,782
April 1940 - 5,026
May 1940 - 3,645

EDIT:
June 1940 - 4542
July 1940 - 5749
August 1940 - 1898 (And, judging from a 30% production drop in August 1940, I figure that is when the third pattern front end cut-over was.)
September 1940 - 8186

The drawings are available on-line, that's where I got all my copies of the three different type of front end, and the term "Released for Production" means exactly what it sounds like it means.

Ref:
"New Front End Assembly for the U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30, M1," Infantry Board, 1 December 1939
"Report of Test of New Front End Assembly for the U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30, M1," Infantry Board, 27 October 1939
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Those 33k garands were all gas traps with the type 2 cylinder. In June of 40 gas port production started using the barrel and cylinder we use today...not your prototype gas port cylinder and barrel.

If you have the docs... upload and share them here. I don't have to do random google searches to prove " your" point. You have them...share them...it's that simple.
 
2 August 1937 - Barrel, P/N 28286, this is the barrel for the gas trap
10 March 1939 - Barrel, P/N 13661, this is the barrel for the front end shown in post #3, the gas port is 0.069"
1 March 1940 - Barrel, P/N 35448, this is the barrel that would be produced until the end of M1 production, gas port diameter 0.079"
1 March 1940 - Cylinder, P/N 35449, this is the narrow front sight base type gas cylinder, used until 1943-ish.

So, yes, in June 1940 production would have been with Barrel, P/N 35448. However, in the summer of 1939, 200 rifles "of the new front end design" were shipped to the Small Arms School at Camp Perry, a few weeks later another 200 were shipped as some of the original ones had problems with the cartridge follower. The fact that Springfield could ship 200 replacement rifle of the new design, along with the 200 shipped to Fort Benning for testing (along with 40,000 rounds of Ball, M2, Lot # FA 3047) that quickly, shows that this intermediate design was not a one-off, or prototype, but something in production. There are also excerpts from letters from 11 States', as well as the Hawaii and Puerto Rico National Guard of their opinion of M1s with "the new front end design", so at a minimum 51 other M1s of the intermediate type, more likely 510 (ten to each NG command). M1 production with the second type gas cylinder had to be fairly substantial.

In any case, all testing of the new front end (non-gas trap) was done with M2 Ball. The entire report is several hundred pages long, so no, I am not going to scan it, you can look it up, I will however show you that the new front end was tested, and optimized for Ball, M2, not Ball, M1.

M1 test new front end.png
 
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There were four types of gas trap gas cylinders. The model shop guns had the "spear points" as the lightening cuts were often referred to and the front sight base was rounded. There were no drawing numbers or markings anywhere on the cylinder. The front sight was a single blade with no protective wings. The gas trap cylinder pic I posted is on Model Shop rifle #2. The front sight is off of a type 1 gas trap cylinder.

The type 1 production gas cylinders had the spear points, and the front sight base was changed to a squared off configuration. I assume for better support. There was now a drawing number stamped on top of the rear support ring. The front sight was changed to a blade, with protective wings, which presented a problem.....the wings stuck straight up! Soldiers would sometimes mistake one of the protective wings for the actual sight blade, resulting in an errant shot. The front sight on #2 is off of a type 1 gas cylinder.

The type 2 gas cylinders omitted the spear points and the drawing number. At some point the protective wings on the front sight were bent outward, solving that problem.

The type 3 cylinders saw the re-appearance of the drawing number on the support ring. The spear points were still missing.

These are the basic differences between the gas trap cylinders. They all had some problems in actual use. They were difficult to clean and I am guessing carbon buildup in the trap's chamber area might have raised pressures resulting in op-rod troubles. Don't know for sure on this. Perhaps someone can shine some light on the subject. The gas trap cylinders were very different in their manner of attachment to the gun. The rear support ring was threaded, as was the barrel and they were screwed onto the barrel. There was a slot in the top of the cylinder which allowed the front sight to extend downward and lock into a single spline in the barrel, indexing the sight. This sounds a lot stronger than it really is. I have heard that they didn't hold up well to rough treatment...as in bayonet fighting. It would seem to make sense. The gas cylinder on Model Shop #2 that I am holding in the pic is a bit wobbly.

Btw, ignore that horrible glossy stock on the gun. It is not original. Neither are the front sight or the op-rod, It is a dash-1. None of the 80 Model shop guns remain in their original configuration.
 

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Some data sheets contained in Scott Duff's book, "Garands WW II, show:

# 11267, made in May, 1939.....type 1 gas trap gas cylinder.

#15474 , made in September, 1939....type 1 gas trap gas cylinder

#26171, made in January 1940... Type 2 gas trap gas cylinder

#34337 , made in April 1940....type 2 gas trap gas cylinder

#39446, made in May 1940...Type 2 gas trap gas cylinder.
lysanderxiii said:
Then tell us what did they put on the 33,000 rifles produced during that time frame?
Click to expand...
See above. It would appear at least some of them had standard gas trap gas cylinders.....
 
Jeremy2171 said:
BTW can you make that print any clearer? What was the date of the test you are referencing?
And a google search of your references gives me nothing.... so a little help here...
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The pertinent sections:

Reference c. Infantry Board Report No. 1044, Rifle, U.S. Caliber .30, M1, Functioning of M2 Ammunition In M1 Rifles, March 6, 1939. [This is a test of the gas trap that showed it did not work well with M2 ball ammunition.]

7. TEST NO. 1.

a. Purpose: To compare the accuracy and functioning of the subject M1 rifle with the present issue M1 by firing the standard qualification course "A", using M2 ammunition.

Lot FA 3047, M2 ammunition was used.

So, the testing of the gas port design was done with M2 ball ammunition.
Jeremy2171 said:
But, again actual gas port production didn't begin until June of 40 and it wasn't with your design shown above.
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I never said the final production version started before June 1940. I said that the type shown in post #3 was produced no earlier than March 1939 and until 1 March 1940, which is when the final design drawing was approved.

The three pages are from: "Report of Test of New Front End Assembly for the U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30, M1," Infantry Board, 27 October 1939, which is also where the picture shown in post #3 comes from.

There was now a drawing number stamped on top of the rear support ring.
Click to expand...
What is the part number stamped on these?

The gas trap cylinders were very different in their manner of attachment to the gun. The rear support ring was threaded, as was the barrel and they were screwed onto the barrel.
Click to expand...

Tark, I believe you will find the front support, just aft of the sight base, on the cylinder is the threaded portion.

sieyLmn.png

x6qZVq4.png
 
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A few serial numbers are mentioned in the "Report of Test of New Front End Assembly for the U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30, M1."

12,460
13.484
13,987
14,869
15,096

This indicates at least some of June through September 1939's production was of the intermediate type.

EDIT:
Oh, and you will find some of the drawings here.
 
lysanderxiii said:
A few serial numbers are mentioned in the "Report of Test of New Front End Assembly for the U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30, M1."

12,460
13.484
13,987
14,869
15,096

This indicates at least some of June through September 1939's production was of the intermediate type.

EDIT:
Oh, and you will find some of the drawings here.
Click to expand...
How a about a link to google docs so I can read them?
 
lysanderxiii said:
Tark, I believe you will find the front support, just aft of the sight base, on the cylinder is the threaded portion.
Click to expand...
Got ya, lysandexriii, and thanks :thumbup: I have never had one disassembled in front of me to examine. Learn something every day!
 
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The report in question, even after 80 years, seems to still be limited distribution, so I cannot just post it.

If you wish a copy contact the Defense Technical Information Center and request:

ADB959889 - New Front End Assembly for the U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30, M1

Defense Technical Information Center (DTIC-R)
ATTN: FOIA Requester Service Center
8725 John J. Kingman Road
Fort Belvoir, Virginia 22060-6218

-or-

by FAX at 703-767-9201

While your there ask for

ADB962014 - Report on Test of Powder for Cartridges, Ball Caliber .30, M2
ADB959906 - U.S. Semi-Automatic Rifle, Caliber .30, M1
 
lysanderxiii said:
The report in question, even after 80 years, seems to still be limited distribution, so I cannot just post it.

If you wish a copy contact the Defense Technical Information Center and request:

ADB959889 - New Front End Assembly for the U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30, M1

Defense Technical Information Center (DTIC-R)
ATTN: FOIA Requester Service Center
8725 John J. Kingman Road
Fort Belvoir, Virginia 22060-6218

-or-

by FAX at 703-767-9201

While your there ask for

ADB962014 - Report on Test of Powder for Cartridges, Ball Caliber .30, M2
ADB959906 - U.S. Semi-Automatic Rifle, Caliber .30, M1
Click to expand...
Nice cop out...you supposedly have the files but can't put them on google docs to share with fellow collectors.

Or even get a readable copy
 
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