How far out can a stock AR10 in 308 reasonably be expected to shoot accurately?

Status
Not open for further replies.
I think you might have an error or two in there. 6 MOA at 600 yards is approximately 36”. 1 MOA at 600 yards is ~6”.

And not to get too pedantic, but there’s a difference in MOA between yards and meters. 600 meters = 658 yards, and a 1MOA circle at that range is 6.87” in diameter. So using the shorthand of 1” every 100 yards, at 600 meters you’re actually closer to the 700 yard value than you are to the 600 yard value. Granted, that difference is more important when making adjustments than when discussing group size.
Yes, I mis-typed that. 6 MOA is a rifle that is a candidate for disposal. As for the difference between meters/yards, in the sniper community, we worked in meters, and our equipment (range finders, scope adjustment conversions to/from mils, ballistic software, etc.) generally reflected this. Our "quick conversion method" was to add 10% of the distance when converting yards to meters. The main instance where this was necessary was on some of the older KD ranges that were set up in yards. Obviously, at shorter distances, this 10% difference was negligible, but at a longer distance like 1,000 yards (915 meters in actual distance) the difference is considerable- esp. when using a light-for-the-distance caliber like the 308/7.62 NATO.
 
I guess my starting goal of what I think is reasonably good is to hit a silhouette target at 600 yards.

This should be easily attainable with any reasonably well built AR-10, firing ammo it tolerates reasonably well, from a supported position (prone or benched, from bipod or bags) in reasonably stable wind conditions by a reasonably skilled marksman. Sound reasonable?

An IPSC Silhouette is 18x30”, so at 600 yards, it offers a hair under 3MOA wide. Almost any load you might consider in 308/7.62 will be super-sonic at 600, and given a sufficient optic to allow accurate placement of the point of aim and compensate for the distance and wind, most guys can hold onto 3moa that far with very little effort.

Some loads in 308/7.62 can fall transonic or even subsonic before 1,000yrds, so things can get hairy past 800-900, but if a rifle can deliver ~1moa at 100 and velocity isn’t all over the map, holding onto an IPSC target out to 600-800 is reasonable.

So that’s my personal standard - I would expect to be able to hit an IPSC out to 600-800 with any AR-10/LFAR I build/buy, otherwise, I’d rebuild/resell it, or work harder to figure out better ammo for it.
 
7.62nato is generally considered a 750-800m cartridge. You can get shots out to 1000, but the bullets are going to be much affected by the environment at that distance, too--no matter the delivery system.

400m/440yds is a quarter-mile, which is a lot of reaching out.
Generally, this is true. The fact is, the 308 can be pushed MUCH further with the right equipment, information, application of techniques, and environmental conditions. I have done it and seen others do it, but in all honesty, past 1 KM, even with the best equipment, a better-than-average shooter, and favorable conditions, it starts becoming more of a "trick" than anything else. As far as military 7.62 NATO sniper systems like the M24 and SR25 as originally issued, the advertised 800 meter effective range was a limitation imposed by the optics issued with the rifles, and an absence of other enabling equipment (and thus, key information) "way back then".
 
I have done it and seen others do it, but in all honesty, past 1 KM, even with the best equipment, a better-than-average shooter, and favorable conditions, it starts becoming more of a "trick" than anything else.

I agree, passing 1km with a 308win is a novelty, not a practice. I do choke a little to say it’s a flat out “trick,” since there certainly are a few “traps” which can be employed to make 1km repeatable, but generally, I do agree, there’s a lot going on past 1000m/1100yrds which changes the game substantially. I’ve taken a 308 to a mile, but it’s not reliable, even with a long barrel, a lot of powder, and very slippery bullets - even 1200-1400yrds feels like a completely different rifle than shooting 800-1000.

I honestly consider that differential the obvious breaking point between LR and ELR shooting. When you have to start dealing with multiple BC’s and working with different bullets to better survive being slapped on the ass and forced to do the hula as they pass through the transonic boundary. I’ve struggled for a long time to really define what causes Short Range to be different from Mid-Range, and both to be different from Long Range, but that transonic shift is irrefutably significant when crossing into ELR.
 
Wow, thanks for all the replies everyone! I guess I might try and take this rifle in that direction, once I develop a load it likes (though I'm having issues with this at the moment, see my thread https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...trating-308-not-fitting-in-case-gauge.899492/ ), if it's reasonably accurate for me at the 100-300 yard range.

I guess the next thing I'll be looking for is a good optic that won't break the bank...
 
I agree, passing 1km with a 308win is a novelty, not a practice.
I largely agree with you. But the reason we even bother pushing it so far was to actually be able to do it (maybe) if the "target" presented itself at such a long distance, with that being the opportunity we were given, and the 7.62 NATO (VS something heavier) being the rifle we had in hand at that particular time and place, and the team being in a "nothing ventured nothing gained" scenario. This is where the proverb of "you miss 100% of the shots you don't take" comes into play.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GravelRider
It shouldn't be too difficult. In training several of us were able to hit pop-up targets at 600 meters with off the rack M14's in the 1960's. Scoped quality AR10 should be an advantage.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GravelRider
Wow, thanks for all the replies everyone! I guess I might try and take this rifle in that direction, once I develop a load it likes (though I'm having issues with this at the moment, see my thread https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...trating-308-not-fitting-in-case-gauge.899492/ ), if it's reasonably accurate for me at the 100-300 yard range.

I guess the next thing I'll be looking for is a good optic that won't break the bank...

this is a scope that i use and it’s amazing. You zero it at 100 and all you have to do it’s use the acss marks for different ranges and its very accurate.

Primary Arms SLx 4-14x44mm FFP Rifle Scope - Illuminated ACSS-HUD-DMR-308/223

409543F9-5401-4D0C-8D7C-324121198EBD.jpeg
 
this is a scope that i use and it’s amazing. You zero it at 100 and all you have to do it’s use the acss marks for different ranges and its very accurate.

Primary Arms SLx 4-14x44mm FFP Rifle Scope - Illuminated ACSS-HUD-DMR-308/223

View attachment 1047968

I had the older MilDot version of that scope.

If that the most your budget allows, that'd be my choice and think you'd be well served.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GravelRider
I have a Aero Precision AR in 308. 18" Ballistic Advantage barrel.
Only real upgrade is I added a 3.5# Geissele SAA-E 2 stage trigger.
Running a fairly cheap 6.5-20x44 Vortex Viper scope.
You'll ring steel all day long at 600y.
My Target is usually 12" stick on dot on plain paper.
 
I haven’t stretched mine that far but I have found three loads for it that shoot about 3/4” at 100 yards. I tend to load in the 308 Service Rifle range, meaning lower pressure than standard 308.

The lower came from their shop shelf with the NiB two stage trigger. It’s a pretty big jump over a mil spec trigger.
 
Let's put it this way:

The average USMC recruit is handed an M4 which is only required by specifications to be 4 to 5 MOA, and placed on a 500 meter range and has to qualify hitting a man-sized target.

Your average AR-10 is at worst a 4 MOA gun, so the gun is capable of keeping all the shots in the 8 ring (or better) of a standard NRA 1000 yard target. However, the real question is, "Is the shooter capable of such accuracy?"
 
this is a scope that i use and it’s amazing. You zero it at 100 and all you have to do it’s use the acss marks for different ranges and its very accurate.

Primary Arms SLx 4-14x44mm FFP Rifle Scope - Illuminated ACSS-HUD-DMR-308/223

View attachment 1047968

I am using the same scope on my Gen 1 PSA PA10. Once I finish fine tuning the ammo for that rifle I will be replacing the scope. The chevron just doesn't work well for me with my astigmatism. Otherwise it is a good scope for the money.

I have a Gen 1 PA-10, similar to what the OP is running. 18” 1 in 10” twist stainless barrel, with their fairly cheap furniture. Mine has not shown great accuracy, but most of my shooting has been with lighter bullets, 125 gr TNT’s, 155 gr Nosler CC BTHP’s.

Try some different ammo in different weights and you will be surprised.

Like I said earlier, my Savage Model 12 shoots the Norma TAC 150 Gr FMJ like a laser but that same ammo shoots like crap in my PA10. Winchester White Box 147Gr FMJ actually shot better than the Norma in my PA10. Tae the time to find what ammo shoots best in your rifle.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GravelRider
Let's put it this way:

The average USMC recruit is handed an M4 which is only required by specifications to be 4 to 5 MOA, and placed on a 500 meter range and has to qualify hitting a man-sized target.

Your average AR-10 is at worst a 4 MOA gun, so the gun is capable of keeping all the shots in the 8 ring (or better) of a standard NRA 1000 yard target. However, the real question is, "Is the shooter capable of such accuracy?"

I have taken raw recruits in the Army with no firearm experience and had them hitting the 300m target damn near every shot with iron sights on the M16A1 and A2. Some of the Army units I was assigned to has us shoot out to 500m with the M16A2 and that wasn't too hard to do either.

If one can't hit a target at 600 meters with a scoped 308 AR, then it is either the shooter or something is not right with the rifle.
 
Wow, thanks for all the replies everyone! I guess I might try and take this rifle in that direction, once I develop a load it likes (though I'm having issues with this at the moment, see my thread https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...trating-308-not-fitting-in-case-gauge.899492/ ), if it's reasonably accurate for me at the 100-300 yard range.

I guess the next thing I'll be looking for is a good optic that won't break the bank...
I think your small base dies are going to fix your case problem just fine. My Armalite AR10 loves 40.8 grains of Varget and 42 grains of Varget with Hornady 168 gr V max. All of my 7.62 rifles like 40.8 grains of Varget and the 168 gr V Max so that's my go to load. I was shooting pennies in my backyard at 80 yards from a rest with either 40.8 gr or 42 gr, I don't remember. It's sub MOA at 100 yards all day long. I wish I had a 600 yard range but I don't but I'm confident that the rifle is plenty accurate enough to ring steel at 600 yards. As far as optics go, a well known youtube sniper person is highly recommending the Arken SH-4. it's 6-24x50 with an illuminated reticle, zero stops, allegedly excellent tracking, good glass, first focal plane, etc and all for less than $500. I don't even need one but I'm thinking of getting one at that price. I probably will in fact.
https://www.arkenoptics.com/sh4gen2-p00107.html
 
Good to see someone else has good luck with the Winchester White Box M80 7.62x51 and a PA10. I haven’t shot much of it but what little I’ve done was well above expectations. I don’t know that I could shoot to 600 yards but I’m sure the PA10 is capable of it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GravelRider
Good to see someone else has good luck with the Winchester White Box M80 7.62x51 and a PA10

I wouldn't say I had good luck with it, just that it shot better than the Norma out of my PA10. Both had rather large groups at 100 yards. My PA10 does better with heavier bullets. And I also know that the Norma Tac 150Gr is good ammo since my Savage Model 12 FVL will shoot very small groups at 100 yards with it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GravelRider
From my experience shooting 308 long range I have three "zones" if you will. This is assuming an accurate rifle and match ammo in the 175ish grain range.

0-800 yards I expect first round hits on a full size silhouette target. Unless the weather is really bad, a miss at this range means i messed up the shooting solution or misjudged the wind bad.

800-1100 yards is harder but not that bad. Wind calls need to be more precise and misses due to wind shift are more common. But usually a correction after a miss results in a hit.

1100 yards plus, your wind calls need to be exact and evert the slightest shift in wind conditions will move the impact fairly significantly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GravelRider
From my experience shooting 308 long range I have three "zones" if you will. This is assuming an accurate rifle and match ammo in the 175ish grain range.

0-800 yards I expect first round hits on a full size silhouette target. Unless the weather is really bad, a miss at this range means i messed up the shooting solution or misjudged the wind bad.

800-1100 yards is harder but not that bad. Wind calls need to be more precise and misses due to wind shift are more common. But usually a correction after a miss results in a hit.

1100 yards plus, your wind calls need to be exact and evert the slightest shift in wind conditions will move the impact fairly significantly.
I was a machine gunner, a rifleman and a gunner behind a vehicle mounted 25 mm chain gun. So, I like to talk about one shot one kill as if it's a real thing but in reality, I LOL at the idea past 500 yards. Maybe if I had a 500 yard zero. But mostly, I'd just lay down a magazine full of GI 7.62 ball ammo to reach out that far if need be and I wouldn't feel a bit of guilt about it. Tracer on Target. Burst on target. That's how Uncle Sam trained me to shoot.
 
  • Like
Reactions: C-grunt
I was a machine gunner, a rifleman and a gunner behind a vehicle mounted 25 mm chain gun. So, I like to talk about one shot one kill as if it's a real thing but in reality, I LOL at the idea past 500 yards. Maybe if I had a 500 yard zero. But mostly, I'd just lay down a magazine full of GI 7.62 ball ammo to reach out that far if need be and I wouldn't feel a bit of guilt about it. Tracer on Target. Burst on target. That's how Uncle Sam trained me to shoot.

I was also a machine gunner. Fire a burst and adjust off tracer. Works really well.

My response was based off target shooting. My longest shot in combat was 410 meters, measured by map, as a designated marksman. That shot was actually about 50 or so meters farther than the longest shot out snipers took that deployment.
 
I was also a machine gunner. Fire a burst and adjust off tracer. Works really well.

My response was based off target shooting. My longest shot in combat was 410 meters, measured by map, as a designated marksman. That shot was actually about 50 or so meters farther than the longest shot out snipers took that deployment.
That's good shootin'. especially when the target is running around and shooting back.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GravelRider
Thanks for all the replies everyone!

I'm not sure what I'm going to do with optics yet. I think I'm just going to get my reloads worked up, take it out to 300 yards, if it performs well, I'll then move out to 600 yards and report back. I'm sure I'll be looking for better optics at some point down the line, but I'll wait until I find that to be my limiting factor.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GatorHunter
Status
Not open for further replies.