Live fire drills with people on the range?!?

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silicosys4

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So I have a friend who is a combat veteran. He has stated that he would be interested in sharing some combat training tactics he received in the military.

One of the training tactics he says he used in iraq was a particular live fire drill,

Whereby one person fires on a target at 30 yards,
While their training partner walks downrange and stands next to the target as it is being fired at
With live ammunition.

I have never heard of this being done in the US military and frankly I don't see the utility.

Is this a thing?
 
I've seen training where it is acceptable to run drills where one person is further downrange than another but they are out of the direct line of fire. For example one person might be engaging with a rifle at 50 yards where another is engaging from 25 yards. There is appropriate lateral separation between shooters though and muzzle and trigger discipline is strictly enforced. I see no issue with it among competent shooters. Much of what we see at typical range rules with everyone on the same firing line creates training scars for an actual fight.

Keep in mind that these are carefully supervised drills as a culmination of good training and instruction, not some yahoos blasting away at a sloppy range.
 
shafter said:
I've seen training where it is acceptable to run drills where one person is further downrange than another but they are out of the direct line of fire. For example one person might be engaging with a rifle at 50 yards where another is engaging from 25 yards. There is appropriate lateral separation between shooters though and muzzle and trigger discipline is strictly enforced. I see no issue with it among competent shooters. Much of what we see at typical range rules with everyone on the same firing line creates training scars for an actual fight.

Keep in mind that these are carefully supervised drills as a culmination of good training and instruction, not some yahoos blasting away at a sloppy range.
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That seems reasonable but that was not what was described.

This is all coming from another non military/LEO friend that did some casual training with him. He says they ran a drill where, as one person was firing at a target, the other person would walk downrange a few feet beside the line of fire and stand beside the target...in order to get used to your teammates being in front of your line of fire in the chaos of a combat situation.

My combat vet friend stated this was a common drill run by his unit while in iraq.
 
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shafter said:
I've seen training where it is acceptable to run drills where one person is further downrange than another but they are out of the direct line of fire.
Click to expand...

Yes, but the fire would not need to be live. What would necessitate live fire for such a drill?

shafter said:
Much of what we see at typical range rules with everyone on the same firing line creates training scars for an actual fight.
Click to expand...

Firing lines serve a purpose of allowing many people simultaneous live fire in relative safety. It is suitable for learning weapons handling skills. Training to fight would certainly go beyond a firing line. There are a lot of drills and skills for individuals in shoot houses, or the more modern-day USPSA or IPSC style courses. For teams of shooters or force-on-force, we have simunitions.
 
Yeah, I wouldn't be doing that at a public range. The second someone goes past the firing line a cold range should be called. Safer for everyone there. The last thing any public range wants is for someone to be shot there. LEs get involved, medical bills, lawsuits, etc build from there. Not worth it for the range. I'd never want to see that happen at my range. Plus your combat friend did this with other combat vets that trained like this for a living. I wouldn't be too comfortable taking shots at a target with someone untrained in front of me. You might flinch in the wrong direction or do something you shouldn't have because you had no clue. Nope.
 
That sort of thing is common in certain units but would give most other unit leaders an aneurism. The most important component of such high risk training is that everyone involved in it is trained at the same level. Putting a 16 year old who just got his driver's license yesterday on a NASCAR track today with professional drivers on the rack would be a very dangerous situation for everyone involved too, right?
 
FL-NC said:
That sort of thing is common in certain units but would give most other unit leaders an aneurism. The most important component of such high risk training is that everyone involved in it is trained at the same level. Putting a 16 year old who just got his driver's license yesterday on a NASCAR track today with professional drivers on the rack would be a very dangerous situation for everyone involved too, right?
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So are you confirming this is an actual drill that is allowed during U.S military training?
 
silicosys4 said:
That seems reasonable but that was not what was described.

This is all coming from another non military/LEO friend that did some casual training with him. He says they ran a drill where, as one person was firing at a target, the other person would walk downrange a few feet beside the line of fire and stand beside the target...in order to get used to your teammates being in front of your line of fire in the chaos of a combat situation.

My combat vet friend stated this was a common drill run by his unit while in iraq.
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I call BS.
silicosys4 said:
He said it was so you could become comfortable taking shots with your team in the line of fire or some such.
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Even Delta has gotten enough experience downrange over the past twenty-odd years to not need to train with live fire. I've never heard of this (with US forces), and certainly never saw it in Iraq. Of course, I can speak only for my personal experience in Navy and Marine Corps units. But I've been acquainted with some former DEVGRU guys and never heard of this, either.

No one "becomes comfortable taking shots with your team in the line of fire..."
 
So of the two people who appear to have military experience who have chimed in,, both have confirmed. Yes, it seems this drill or something very similar is a thing.

Not my thing, but a thing
 
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silicosys4 said:
So are you confirming this is an actual drill that is allowed during U.S military training?
Click to expand...
Not this exact drill but similar drills, and not for everyone in the US military. During some types of training, we would fire with a team mate being within 1 meter of the target. On a zero range, we would keep our targets about 10' apart. It was normal to go downrange and check your target while others were still firing. Good idea to make sure you walk downrange and back in a straight line. There are other live fire drills that I just can't discuss here. Also- if someone is TRULY "in the line of fire"- that someone would be shot. And no, no one does that. At least not on purpose.
 
Though I have never done such a thing as described in the OP personally, I have heard of it being done in a not so sanctioned arena among folks who were more worried about their machismo than actual training experience.

This philosophy of training is not unheard of though. Close air support comes to mind. Let me tell you, a few bullets from small arms being fired indirectly at me gives me no pause when things like, mini guns, 50s, and a few types of ordinance could be coming your way.

This reminds me of a time at the pistol range when the range was called cold. Apparently someone didn’t hear as I went out to check my target some firing commenced. I knew it was from down the line but I was not too concerned as their target was about 40 ft away. I should emphasize I was not concerned. Everyone else was though.
 
There is a big difference between having a teammate down range of you in the line of fire with rounds snapping close by and having someone downrange, while having a safe amount of lateral separation and muzzle discipline.
 
There is a video around where “operators” and all around a guy trying to shoot some COF and at one point he AD’s into the ground at his feet.

I am not sure at one point trust in your fellow man changes from a good thing to a bad thing for me it’s before they put a bullet in me. I suppose my luck had a lot to do with it to.

Even if it was a perfectly safe practice for everyone (and it’s arguably not) and no one ever got hurt on a gun range, much less down range, on the range, I would be the first to get hit…
 
I've never done anything like the OP describes on a short-distance backstopped range, but live fire training under maneuver in the field may be common depending on a unit's spot in the deployment training cycle. But live-fire lanes would be done exhaustively completely dry and then with blanks several times before being done with live ammo, and I can't think of any situations in which we deliberately fired in closer proximity to other people.
 
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