Pocket .25 Automatic

jstert said:

how is your phoenix hp25a treating you? from what i read it’s not a bad little piece. i somehow accumulated a stash of 25acp ammo for my decent taurus pt25 poly and i’m not averse to getting another 25acp mouse gun…

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I don't have the Phoenix .25, nor the Taurus .25, I only have the Phoenix .22 and had the Taurus PT22 until I sold it earlier this year. The appeal for the Phoenix .25 to me is it's the same gun as the .22, meaning it's got the same decent trigger and sights, which is something pretty much all other .25's lack. The 20oz just doesn't make it practical for carrying in deep concealment like say a Kel Tec .32 does.

The way things are with ammo prices and availability today tho, I can't justify going out of my way to buy a .25 and the case is so small it makes reloading unpleasant, not too mention a waste of small pistol primers.

Since we have all these .25 auto fans here, perfect group to help ID this magazine I found behind an evidence cabinet 45 or so years ago.

It’s a 7 shot mag, no markings at all, nickel or chrome plated.

If you know what it’s for and can use it, first “I’ll take it” posted here will get it mailed to them on me. Send me a PM also in case I miss your request here.

Remington1911 said:

The thing is with these itty bitty 380's there are some people that just can't handle that for one reason or another. I doubt many would say that a 25 is a better choice over 22 for several reasons, centerfire likely near the top of the list. Some of those 380's are pretty snappy. I think there is a place for them, but many are forced to choose the 380. Don't get me wrong the 380 is better, but if you just can't deal with that, age or disability the 25 in even the lightest form is a cream puff. 32 is also something to look at if you have a person with 380 issues....trouble again is finding something in 32 that was built in the last decade, not that many choices.

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I think .25 can be a better choice than 22LR die to the reliability factor. Misfires are just too common with .22LR and if you have some dude sitting on your chest getting ready to cave your skull in and you can only manage to get your weak side BUG out of your pocket to stop him, you want to be able to shove that thing into his ribs and empty the magazine or cylinder as fast as you can pull the trigger and the last thing you would want is a misfire on a semi-auto .22LR because that's a show stopper. There's no clearing that round out to get to the next one. With a revolver at least, you could just squeeze the trigger again and move to the next round which would, hopefully, go bang. therefore, I think the DAO revolvers in .22LR or .22 magnum would be superior to any .22 semi-auto for a defensive weapon. In semi-auto, the .25 .32 or .380 might have the advantage of being more easily stuffed into a pocket but still might be less useful in the ground fight situation I just described. And, due to their small sizes and light weights, there's no reason you couldn't carry both along with your primary weapon.

redcon1 said:

I think .25 can be a better choice than 22LR die to the reliability factor. Misfires are just too common with .22LR and if you have some dude sitting on your chest getting ready to cave your skull in and you can only manage to get your weak side BUG out of your pocket to stop him, you want to be able to shove that thing into his ribs and empty the magazine or cylinder as fast as you can pull the trigger and the last thing you would want is a misfire on a semi-auto .22LR because that's a show stopper. There's no clearing that round out to get to the next one. With a revolver at least, you could just squeeze the trigger again and move to the next round which would, hopefully, go bang. therefore, I think the DAO revolvers in .22LR or .22 magnum would be superior to any .22 semi-auto for a defensive weapon. In semi-auto, the .25 .32 or .380 might have the advantage of being more easily stuffed into a pocket but still might be less useful in the ground fight situation I just described. And, due to their small sizes and light weights, there's no reason you couldn't carry both along with your primary weapon.

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Sorry I re read that and had it backwards. Centerfire is better then rimfire in the reliable area.

Remington1911 said:

Sorry I re read that and had it backwards. Centerfire is better then rimfire in the reliable area.

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I knew what you were saying. It's an issue I have been giving a bit of thought to recently myself. The big advantage that .22LR has over .25 ACP is ammo availability. It seems pretty hard to find .25 ACP or maybe I just haven't looked hard enough. It has me thinking that, for me at least, the J frame .357 magnum in a superfly holster may be the best solution to a weak side pocket BUG even though those Colt vest guns are just awesome. I think I'd have and carry both but the vest gun would actually be a BUG to the BUG. The Bobcats and Tomcats are also pretty sweet in .22LR and 32 ACP. That Tomcat is screaming at me to buy now.

Speedo66 said:

View attachment 1103752 View attachment 1103753 View attachment 1103754 View attachment 1103755 View attachment 1103756
Since we have all these .25 auto fans here, perfect group to help ID this magazine I found behind an evidence cabinet 45 or so years ago.

It’s a 7 shot mag, no markings at all, nickel or chrome plated.

If you know what it’s for and can use it, first “I’ll take it” posted here will get it mailed to them on me. Send me a PM also in case I miss your request here.

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I don't see a magazine catch.

Unless it's on the right side, which isn't shown in your pictures.

If no slot for a mag catch that at least says it has a heel mag release button.

Shivahasagun said:

I don't see a magazine catch.

Unless it's on the right side, which isn't shown in your pictures.

If no slot for a mag catch that at least says it has a heel mag release button.

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No, no cut out, good catch.

It's a start...

I had a Phoenix HP25.

It was heavy for its size. (Zemak, not steel or alluminum) The slide wouldn't close on a full magazine, usually not when loaded one down, and occasionally would need help closing when clambering the first shot when loaded two down.

IIRC, the mags are supposed to hold 10 rounds, but were only fairly reliable loading that first round when loaded to eight.

I don't recall any other issues and fired 100-150 rounds through it if I remember right.

I had three magazines, 3 finger extensions for them, and a pack of recoil springs.

The recoil springs seemed very light duty. Maybe too weak? I think Phoenix told me they should be replaced every 250 rounds or some low number like that.

The gun had as ridiculous amount of "safeties" on it. TWO manual safeties. (A separate lever safety that locked the firing pin plus another for the trigger) it had a couple passive safeties too that were very annoying. One, IIRC, was that you couldn't work the slide without a mag in the gun. So how do you check the chamber with no mag in the gun? You can't! So you insert an unloaded magazine, move safety to "off", then retract slide. But what if your a dummy and insert a loaded mag? You check the chamber while slide is back, release it, clambering a round, remove magazine, and a dummy might think they now have empty gun when they don't! Great "safety" idea, huh?

It's not Phoenix Arms fault I bet. I bet these were mandated by the state. They are made in California.

I wonder if any other gun, especially handgun, is "made in California"?

Can we talk about values here?

What's the price range on some .25's?

Ravens? Beretta M950B? (They are pre-'68) 950BS? M21A?

Speedo66 said:

View attachment 1103752 View attachment 1103753 View attachment 1103754 View attachment 1103755 View attachment 1103756
Since we have all these .25 auto fans here, perfect group to help ID this magazine I found behind an evidence cabinet 45 or so years ago.

It’s a 7 shot mag, no markings at all, nickel or chrome plated.

If you know what it’s for and can use it, first “I’ll take it” posted here will get it mailed to them on me. Send me a PM also in case I miss your request here.

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FIE Titan 25acp. Also the EIG Titan. That is the magazine you have there

redcon1 said:

I knew what you were saying. It's an issue I have been giving a bit of thought to recently myself. The big advantage that .22LR has over .25 ACP is ammo availability. It seems pretty hard to find .25 ACP or maybe I just haven't looked hard enough. It has me thinking that, for me at least, the J frame .357 magnum in a superfly holster may be the best solution to a weak side pocket BUG even though those Colt vest guns are just awesome. I think I'd have and carry both but the vest gun would actually be a BUG to the BUG. The Bobcats and Tomcats are also pretty sweet in .22LR and 32 ACP. That Tomcat is screaming at me to buy now.

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Bobcats (M21A) in .22lr are very picky, and it's common to have one that won't run on anything well enough to bet your life on. The .25's run much better, as do .25 cal. Beretta M950's. (Jetfire)

Tomcats (M3032) may or may not run right and commonly break.

I've owned all of these, except I've not had a .22 short M950.

Another plus to the .25 acp is they can be reloaded. Cases last a long time, lead bullets can be bought cheap, typical small primers, and powder is basically free because they use .9 - 1.5 grs per load depending on powder.

Shivahasagun said:

I had a Phoenix HP25.

It was heavy for its size. (Zemak, not steel or alluminum) The slide wouldn't close on a full magazine, usually not when loaded one down, and occasionally would need help closing when clambering the first shot when loaded two down.

IIRC, the mags are supposed to hold 10 rounds, but were only fairly reliable loading that first round when loaded to eight.

I don't recall any other issues and fired 100-150 rounds through it if I remember right.

I had three magazines, 3 finger extensions for them, and a pack of recoil springs.

The recoil springs seemed very light duty. Maybe too weak? I think Phoenix told me they should be replaced every 250 rounds or some low number like that.

The gun had as ridiculous amount of "safeties" on it. TWO manual safeties. (A separate lever safety that locked the firing pin plus another for the trigger) it had a couple passive safeties too that were very annoying. One, IIRC, was that you couldn't work the slide without a mag in the gun. So how do you check the chamber with no mag in the gun? You can't! So you insert an unloaded magazine, move safety to "off", then retract slide. But what if your a dummy and insert a loaded mag? You check the chamber while slide is back, release it, clambering a round, remove magazine, and a dummy might think they now have empty gun when they don't! Great "safety" idea, huh?

It's not Phoenix Arms fault I bet. I bet these were mandated by the state. They are made in California.

I wonder if any other gun, especially handgun, is "made in California"?

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FMK is still California of course. As is Accu-tek which has been around since the 1980s. I try to support the American smaller manufacturers as much as possible. Especially ones that have the resolve to remain in California in spite of the anti RKBA attempts to completely take over that state. Hopefully there are others. I dont live there but it is still the USA (my country) and there are a lot of good pro gun firearm enthusiests people still there

Shivahasagun said:

Can we talk about values here? What's the price range on some .25's?

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Gone are the days (decades actually) of $25-$100 mousers but deals do pop up in the $150-$250 range now and then. I recently scored a minty Astra Cub for $225 and sold a beater for $275.

I was tempted recently by a new Cobra .25 double barrel derringer for $200 but some research taught me they are really junky. As in don't work and / or don't work for long. (All models of Cobra derringer)

Beretta .25's (950, M21) seem to be $400+ in very good or better shape. Worn ones about $350.

Ravens $75-$150 depending on condition.

Shivahasagun said:

Can we talk about values here?

What's the price range on some .25's?

Ravens? Beretta M950B? (They are pre-'68) 950BS? M21A?

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Ravens were always the best of the inexpensive 25s. Very reliable if properly cared for as well as being accurate and confortable shooting little 25s. Lots of internet bashing out there of course but the reputation among actual owners and shooters has always been very good. The design itself is very sound and one of the most copied in firearms history. Hi-points, Jennings, Bryco, Davis, Lorcin, Cobra etc. etc. are basically all just ravens with different asthetics. There are small differences of course and some are executed better than others in terms of manufacturing but the poor ridiculed Raven deffinitly had a major impact on the firearms industry leading to an entire subsection of inexpensive defensive autopistols that almost anyone could be able to afford. It was not unheard of for LEO to carry Ravens as a backup or bug back in the early days of its release. Gun Magazines did some testing and write ups on the Raven way back when and it was always positive. Of course this was back before the notion of 25acp being less effective than throwing a rock went on the internet (which is nonsense of course IMO). Prices are all over the place. These days I could see them going for maybe $75-$100 but there are some rare versions that collectors (yes people collect these) like to pay premiums for. Gun shops will snob the Raven for the most part so I would maybe start at pawn shop types.

Reliability will FMJ is excellent. Accuracy is very good (ravens tend to have pretty decent barrels). Durability is very good as well as its rare to see a cracked slide or frame on a Raven. Like any inexpensive pistol sometimes they need a little tweek but Ravens typically run very well. They have a steel breach plug in the slide that fully supports the case rim on extraction and being a straight blowback... extraction is always very solid. Weak point is the cast fireing pin which can break from dry fireing but there are inexpensive machined steal and stainless aftermarket ones out there.

Being a single action striker fired pistol I dont recommend carrying with a round chambered (or any other Raven inspired design for that matter including Hi-points). But if you are comfortable racking a slide and want a very simple, inexpensive, and well designed 25acp to carry the Raven is not a bad option.

Also.... there is a false notion out there of the Pheonix HP25 recoil springs being adequate for the Raven. Im comfortable in saying this is completly false. There will work but its a thinner gauge wire and weaker which can lead to stress cracking of the slide in short order. I tested this and found stress cracks after 50 rounds of standard FMJ ball. First time I ever encountered that on a Raven and I have shot them a lot through many years along will all the copies.. including Sundance, Stallard, Iberia, Haskell, Hipoints, Bryco, Lorcins, Davis et. etc.

The design itself is extremly simple. Accuracy will be laregly dependent the barrels that the manufacturer uses. Lorcins being the worst as they a practically smooth bore in terms of rifleing. Davis were not that far off. Best to stick with 32acp and below with the zamak pocket guns. Anything bigger and its best to go the hipoint route as they are overbuilt to the extreme due to the design and materials being largely dependent on slide mass and thickness (its a Zamak thing). Most of the 380acps in zamak from davis, bryco, jennings, lorcin etc. will crack slides.

I always throw a Raven in the range bag and people always end up liking them. Fun little pistols even for new shooters. My son is 10 years old and hes been shooting Ravens since he was 7 and is accurate with them. Even more so than the baby brownings which are too small for most people outside of those who practice a bit with them. Ravens are a good blend in terms of size to caliber ratio.

Shivahasagun said:

I was tempted recently by a new Cobra .25 double barrel derringer for $200 but some research taught me they are really junky. As in don't work and / or don't work for long. (All models of Cobra derringer)

Beretta .25's (950, M21) seem to be $400+ in very good or better shape. Worn ones about $350.

Ravens $75-$150 depending on condition.

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Those little davis/cobra derringers are not horrible but derringers that small in general are tricky. The trigger pull is different (down and back do to design) and there is not much to hold on to. I would not say they are fun other than the occasional.. shoot a few rounds and be done with it. Ravens are pretty fun for a 25acp. Expensive ammo lately but fun. Mine all group very well and are reliable. The little davis/cobra derringers are certainly smaller though....tiny. Mini Derringers are not the type of pistol you go out and shoot a lot unless you just love derringers. In that case maybe try the 22lr derringers and shoot colibris or CCI quiets in them. Durability wise... the davis/cobras are around in 32acp and 22WMR chamberings so I dont see 25acp or 22lr being much of a problem in terms of safety or being able to handle preasure. Mine davis mini derringers 22lr and 22wmr all still work fine but I admit I dont shoot them a whole lot. I wouldnt pay $200 for one. That must be cowboy action shooters fetching those prices. Mine were $50 each back in maybe 2001.

Beretta 25s are obvilously very nice of course. Expensive... of course (its a beretta after all).

Personally... if you are trying the 25acp for pocket carry I would grab an inexpensive Raven first and give it a try. They are easy to tweek if needed. If its abused and doesnt group you can lap the barrel crown with a brass round head screw and a drill. Parts (if needed) are easy to find and cheap. The hardest thing to source will most likely be the Ammo itself but it still comes in batches now and then.

Shivahasagun said:

I had a Phoenix HP25.

It was heavy for its size. (Zemak, not steel or alluminum) The slide wouldn't close on a full magazine, usually not when loaded one down, and occasionally would need help closing when clambering the first shot when loaded two down.

IIRC, the mags are supposed to hold 10 rounds, but were only fairly reliable loading that first round when loaded to eight.

I don't recall any other issues and fired 100-150 rounds through it if I remember right.

I had three magazines, 3 finger extensions for them, and a pack of recoil springs.

The recoil springs seemed very light duty. Maybe too weak? I think Phoenix told me they should be replaced every 250 rounds or some low number like that.

The gun had as ridiculous amount of "safeties" on it. TWO manual safeties. (A separate lever safety that locked the firing pin plus another for the trigger) it had a couple passive safeties too that were very annoying. One, IIRC, was that you couldn't work the slide without a mag in the gun. So how do you check the chamber with no mag in the gun? You can't! So you insert an unloaded magazine, move safety to "off", then retract slide. But what if your a dummy and insert a loaded mag? You check the chamber while slide is back, release it, clambering a round, remove magazine, and a dummy might think they now have empty gun when they don't! Great "safety" idea, huh?

It's not Phoenix Arms fault I bet. I bet these were mandated by the state. They are made in California.

I wonder if any other gun, especially handgun, is "made in California"?

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The safeties are easy to deactivate and I'm thinking purposefully made that way, Phoenix just puts them on for legal protection.

The firing pin safety never has to be used and I only like it for the .22 model for dry firing during a function check after cleaning.

The recoil springs are weak, but they also cost $1.50 a spring, so nbd. There are aftermarket options that last much longer and cost as much as 10 springs.

They're ok for the price and because they were available for $125 years ago there are quirks you have to accept to enjoy them.

I actually think for a Zamak gun they look good, unlike Hi Point.

That's a mag for the little Tanfoglio 25acp, I could give it to my FiL. He has one.

They were imported for quite a while. I don't know their whole history, but I've seen them with different model names, and labelled FIE and Excam as well as Tanfoglio.

My FiL's goes bang every time. I think it's zamak, but maybe steel ones were also made at one point?

I've always been curious about these little pistols, since they're so common and inexpensive (and I have a soft spot for Tanfoglios).

Tallball said:

That's a mag for the little Tanfoglio 25acp, I could give it to my FiL. He has one.

They were imported for quite a while. I don't know their whole history, but I've seen them with different model names, and labelled FIE and Excam as well as Tanfoglio.

My FiL's goes bang every time. I think it's zamak, but maybe steel ones were also made at one point?

I've always been curious about these little pistols, since they're so common and inexpensive (and I have a soft spot for Tanfoglios).

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starling said:

FIE Titan 25acp. Also the EIG Titan. That is the magazine you have there

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A difference of opinion, maybe it's the same magazine for both.

If either can use it, please PM me with your mailing info.

Shivahasagun said:

Bobcats (M21A) in .22lr are very picky, and it's common to have one that won't run on anything well enough to bet your life on. The .25's run much better, as do .25 cal. Beretta M950's. (Jetfire)

Tomcats (M3032) may or may not run right and commonly break.

I've owned all of these, except I've not had a .22 short M950.

Another plus to the .25 acp is they can be reloaded. Cases last a long time, lead bullets can be bought cheap, typical small primers, and powder is basically free because they use .9 - 1.5 grs per load depending on powder.

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Yeah...I just bought that Tomcat yesterday. It's such a good looking pistol and it seems like it would be a great pocket pistol but... I really hope it works out. I bought a Seecamp 380 yesterday too and I'm feeling the same way about it. Hopefully one or both of these guns will surprise me and make the cut but I'm already having doubts when I get a card with the Tomcat telling me I have to use ammunition that is 130 ft/lbs of energy or less and people are all talking about the slide cracking and then the Seecamp forum is full of people complaining about their new Seecamp pistols doing bad things. Between ammunition unavailability and expense and the inability of modern firearm manufacturers to produce a reliable autoloading handgun, the search for the perfect autoloading pocket pistol seems like a potentially expensive and frustrating exercise. I may have to look into the Jetfire as I see it getting more favorable commentary. Does it digest any .25 ACP that you can find on the shelf?

Tallball

The noted gunsmith and writer J.B. Wood in his book "Troubleshooting Your Handguns" wrote the Titan .25 automatic was designed and built by Tanfoglio Giuseppe Fabbrica d'Armi of Italy. With passage of the GCA of 1968 the finished guns could no longer be imported into the U.S. After this a company called Excam began importing all the parts, minus the frame (which was being made in the U.S.), to build the gun in this country. The name of the gun was also changed to Targa Model GT 27.The frame was made from a non-ferrous alloy (most likely Zamak), while the slide, barrel, and most internal parts were steel.

The author then goes on to point out numerous deficiencies with the design and construction of the gun. Some examples:

"During takedown, when the recoil spring unit is removed, the safety lever can fall out and be lost all too easily".

"There are several points in this design that appear to be manufacturing shortcuts and not entirely desirable ones".

"The ejector is an integral part of the sear. If the ejector is broken, the entire part must be replaced'.

"The disconnector is an upper arm of the trigger bar. Fitting is rather crude and often must be refitted. On a few that I have seen the work was so crude that the disconnector had to be refitted for proper operation".

"The magazine catch is of alloy, not steel. The front tip breaks with some frequency".

"The grips, of thin plastic, with a single stabilizing stud on the lower inside edge, are also prone to breakage".

One thing he did find that was decent about the gun was the magazine:

"The magazine, on the other hand, is strong and nicely made".

redcon1 said:

Yeah...I just bought that Tomcat yesterday. It's such a good looking pistol and it seems like it would be a great pocket pistol but... I really hope it works out. I bought a Seecamp 380 yesterday too and I'm feeling the same way about it. Hopefully one or both of these guns will surprise me and make the cut but I'm already having doubts when I get a card with the Tomcat telling me I have to use ammunition that is 130 ft/lbs of energy or less and people are all talking about the slide cracking and then the Seecamp forum is full of people complaining about their new Seecamp pistols doing bad things. Between ammunition unavailability and expense and the inability of modern firearm manufacturers to produce a reliable autoloading handgun, the search for the perfect autoloading pocket pistol seems like a potentially expensive and frustrating exercise. I may have to look into the Jetfire as I see it getting more favorable commentary. Does it digest any .25 ACP that you can find on the shelf?

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Tomcats tend to crack around 300-500 rounds. Mine did, too. About 250 later the slide split. Up to about rd 350 I was lucky to get through a magazine without a stoppage. It got better and nearly ran about 200 problem-free until the slide broke. Tried various ammo, used Beretta mags, proper cleaning & lube.

Beretta will send you a new gun, then you can sell it unfired. That's what I did. Good luck.

My 950B Jetfires have a short leade chamber. US ammo tends to be too long and the bullet hits the rifling. Magtech, Fiocchi, Aguila fit fine, as does Gold dot & Xtp. They feed all of it. Remington ammo is way too long and won't go into battery even. Wierd, huh? The 950's are very reliable in .25, after a short break-in.

My later, 2001? Model 950bs takes any .25 round, even the Remingtons.

My M21A .25's run fit more in the chamber, but not the long Remingtons. They also sometimes jam on JHP's. I don't recommend jhp for .25 anyway, so it really doesn't matter. Could leave one jhp in the chamber if you wanted.

Don't dry fire your Tomcat or any tip-up small Berettas without an O-ring or something to catch the hammer. If not you'll eventually break the firing pin retaining pin and/or firing pin. If it gets abused it breaks and hits you in your eye protection while you're shooting. (Done that)

Watch those sharp points on the Tomcat slide, they'll bleed you.

redcon1

If your interested in a quality .25 with a DA design, try looking on some of the online auctions for a Beretta Model 20. Slightly smaller than the Model 21A, it was too small to be imported into the U.S., so Beretta imported the necessary parts and built them here. Unfortunately they were only made for a couple of years but they can still be found for sale online with prices ranging anywhere from $350 to $600.

bannockburn said:

redcon1

If your interested in a quality .25 with a DA design, try looking on some of the online auctions for a Beretta Model 20. Slightly smaller than the Model 21A, it was too small to be imported into the U.S., so Beretta imported the necessary parts and built them here. Unfortunately they were only made for a couple of years but they can still be found for sale online with prices ranging anywhere from $350 to $600.

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3 yrs I think. 81-83 IIRC. Yea, I'd like to have a couple.

They only made the 21A so they could chamber it in .22lr.

The M20 uses the same smaller, lighter 8 rd mags as the 950's.

I got 3 9rd Mec-Gar 21A .25 mags but they surprisingly caused malfunctions. I kept one and load it to 8 and it works. The others went in the trash.

Shivahasagun said:

Beretta will send you a new gun, then you can sell it unfired. That's what I did. Good luck.

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I think all of this mouse gun drama perfectly illustrates why the revolver remains an extremely viable self defense option. You can just get a j frame in .22 rimfire and if the ammunition fails to go bang, you can just immediately squeeze the trigger again and move on to a fresh round. IMO, the main purpose of these guns is as a left/weak handed BUG to be used when someone is right on top of you and somehow preventing you from drawing your primary strong side weapon. So, in that situation, you don't want to be fumbling with any kind of a safety or a malfunction. I have a J frame in .357 mag that would be quite suitable in this role as well and a superfly on the way so that may just be my ultimate solution.

I'll have to put some thought into that Tomcat before I shoot it. The Seecamp, on the other hand, is nice because it is so small and it has had an excellent reputation in the past but it seems like newly produced Southwick guns may not be built to the same standards as the older Milford and .380 may just be too much to ask of such a little gun. I will shoot that one and see what happens though and, if I have to, I'll buy another one of the older models in .25 or .32 and see if that's better. I will probably do that regardless.