Critical mold information

AJC1 · Oct 13, 2022

While shopping for molds I have learned to look for certain things that I assumed were taken into account or I still don't have the correct answer. 1. 357 magnum maximum oal 1.590, case trim length 1.290, maximum length to crimp grove .310. 2. 38 special maximum oal 1.550, case trim length 1.150 maximum length to crimp grove .400.
So my initial frustration is having a shorter length for a bullet on a mag cartridge. I only own 357 so I have yet to verify this problem in 327,41 or 44. So I have found a mold stating it's of the classic design. The link is provided below. So if you use the crimp grove with the listed book trim length the oal will exceed the Sammi maximum. Now I have and continue to roll crimp into the bullet. I can't believe a classic design would require that.

Docendo Discimus · Oct 13, 2022

Maybe this is a design for a 35 remington? That long nose would fit there.

RKRCPA · Oct 13, 2022

For revolver bullets I ignore COAL completely, if it fits in the cylinder I'm happy. The 410459 Keith bullets give me an COAL of just under 1.70", just as they were intended.

FROGO207 · Oct 13, 2022

^^^^^^^ This. I have always used the crimp groove to crimp my revolver bullets. With a full WC you can crimp over the edge of the top if you need to crimp at all. Sometimes a taper crimp will hold in a bullet with a low charge. You just don't want it moving forward enough to tie up the cylinder. When you choose a mold measure your cylinder(s) and buy it according to what you can fit in with your brass length accounted for.

Remember OAL reported is what they used when they tested their bullet, not necessarily YOUR bullet.

AJC1 · Oct 13, 2022

FROGO207 said:
^^^^^^^ This. I have always used the crimp groove to crimp my revolver bullets. With a full WC you can crimp over the edge of the top if you need to crimp at all. Sometimes a taper crimp will hold in a bullet with a low charge. You just don't want it moving forward enough to tie up the cylinder. When you choose a mold measure your cylinder(s) and buy it according to what you can fit in with your brass length accounted for.

Remember OAL reported is what they used when they tested their bullet, not necessarily YOUR bullet.

I normally load my 154 noe at 1.585 and developed every charge I have at that length. The same bullet crimps perfectly in the grove for 38 over book spec at 1.495 but less than sammi spec. Every gun I have is 357 so I just use that. My lever won't run a cartridge over 1.605 or it will shave the tips and bind up. That's still not long enough for most 38 designed bullets or this classic 357 design.

AJC1 · Oct 13, 2022

RKRCPA said:
For revolver bullets I ignore COAL completely, if it fits in the cylinder I'm happy. The 410459 Keith bullets give me an COAL of just under 1.70", just as they were intended.

At that length you could basically run any 38 designed bullet but that's way longer than I can get away with. Now I need to check my pistol for max length, I never did that. I just used Sammi spec or just under.

Barbaroja · Oct 13, 2022

The only time this sort of thing has affected my choices in molds has been with the .327 magnum. Crimp groove to the nose has to be under .30 I believe to chamber in my single seven with 327 brass.
Learn something new every day

AJC1 · Oct 13, 2022

Barbaroja said:
The only time this sort of thing has affected my choices in molds has been with the .327 magnum. Crimp groove to the nose has to be under .30 I believe to chamber in my single seven with 327 brass.
Learn something new every day

I'm just here to make every mistake for the benifit of all. Unfortunately I have a life of experience learning the hard way...

AJC1 · Oct 13, 2022

RKRCPA said:
For revolver bullets I ignore COAL completely, if it fits in the cylinder I'm happy. The 410459 Keith bullets give me an COAL of just under 1.70", just as they were intended.

What is the minimum clearance from the end of the chamber for movement? .005 ish sound right....

mdi · Oct 13, 2022

I started (learning) to reload waaaay before the web and figgered the bullet designers knew where to locate the crimp groove. So in 1969 I seated all my revolver bullets to the crimp groove and ignored book OAL. Later when I tried to seat bullets to book OAL most of the time the crimp groove was inside the case or too far out to be used, so I went back to crimp groove seating. It's worked quite well in all my revolvers since then (10, from 38 Special to 45 Colt). As long as the bullet does not stick out the front of the cylinder, I'm good to go. K.I.S.S., no need to over think a simple process...

AJC1 · Oct 13, 2022

mdi said:
I started (learning) to reload waaaay before the web and figgered the bullet designers knew where to locate the crimp groove. So in 1969 I seated all my revolver bullets to the crimp groove and ignored book OAL. Later when I tried to seat bullets to book OAL most of the time the crimp groove was inside the case or too far out to be used, so I went back to crimp groove seating. It's worked quite well in all my revolvers since then (10, from 38 Special to 45 Colt). As long as the bullet does not stick out the front of the cylinder, I'm good to go. K.I.S.S., no need to over think a simple process...

I checked clearance on a loaded round. 357 mag, colt trooper 3 seated to 1.585 clearance. 020. If I were to seat this bullet to the crimp grove it would stick out the cylinder by .010

Barbaroja · Oct 13, 2022

mdi said:
I started (learning) to reload waaaay before the web and figgered the bullet designers knew where to locate the crimp groove. So in 1969 I seated all my revolver bullets to the crimp groove and ignored book OAL. Later when I tried to seat bullets to book OAL most of the time the crimp groove was inside the case or too far out to be used, so I went back to crimp groove seating. It's worked quite well in all my revolvers since then (10, from 38 Special to 45 Colt). As long as the bullet does not stick out the front of the cylinder, I'm good to go. K.I.S.S., no need to over think a simple process...

This is how I do it. Seat to crimp grove and work loads up that way.

Barbaroja · Oct 13, 2022

AJC1 said:
I checked clearance on a loaded round. 357 mag, colt trooper 3 seated to 1.585 clearance. 020. If I were to seat this bullet to the crimp grove it would stick out the cylinder by .010View attachment 1108531
View attachment 1108534

Then that’s not the bullet you want for your colt trooper

AJC1 · Oct 13, 2022

Barbaroja said:
Then that’s not the bullet you want for your colt trooper

It's a 38 bullet not a 357 and exactly the point of this post.

Barbaroja · Oct 13, 2022

Then why use it in a 357? Or perhaps I’m missing the meaning of your thread

AJC1 · Oct 13, 2022

Barbaroja said:
Then why use it in a 357? Or perhaps I’m missing the meaning of your thread

When shopping molds knowing what you max oal and where that crimp grove is needs to be evaluated before you buy. Just because it's 35 caliber it's far from perfect. I suspect that many guns have more clearance despite neither of mine having any.

RKRCPA · Oct 13, 2022

AJC1 said:
What is the minimum clearance from the end of the chamber for movement? .005 ish sound right....

That sounds about right.

mdi · Oct 13, 2022

Troopers seem to have shorter cylinders than other 357 Magnums. So, know your gun and what can be used in it...

S&W model 19 1.674 minus the recessed rim of .053 = 1.620"
S&W model 27 1.673
S&W model 13 1.625
S&W model 586 1.623
S&W model 686Pro 1.620 minus the recessed rim option
S&W model 60 1.590

Dan Wesson 715 1.640 minus the recessed rim option
Dan Wesson Pork 1.638

Ruger Sec Six 1.607
Ruger GP100 1.614
Ruger SP101 1.585
Ruger LCR

Colt Python 1.560
Colt Trooper 1.555
Colt SAA 2nd Gen 1.606
Colt 3 5 7

Taurus M608 1.730
Taurus M66 1.580

AJC1 · Oct 13, 2022

mdi said:
Troopers seem to have shorter cylinders than other 357 Magnums. So, know your gun and what can be used in it...

S&W model 19 1.674 minus the recessed rim of .053 = 1.620"
S&W model 27 1.673
S&W model 13 1.625
S&W model 586 1.623
S&W model 686Pro 1.620 minus the recessed rim option
S&W model 60 1.590

Dan Wesson 715 1.640 minus the recessed rim option
Dan Wesson Pork 1.638

Ruger Sec Six 1.607
Ruger GP100 1.614
Ruger SP101 1.585
Ruger LCR

Colt Python 1.560
Colt Trooper 1.555
Colt SAA 2nd Gen 1.606
Colt 3 5 7

Taurus M608 1.730
Taurus M66 1.580

Your number seems odd. Sammi maximum is 1.590 and my measurement was 1.605. I'm curious on the disparity. The trooper number you have looks like 38.

reddog81 · Oct 13, 2022

Different guns have different cylinder lengths. SAAMI OAL max is the max so that it will fit in all cylinders. Realistically the only measurement that matters are the cylinders in your guns. I have the same bullet and haven't run into any problems but most of my shooting is .38 Special so I couldn't even tell you if I've ever shot it in .357 brass.

mdi · Oct 13, 2022

Sorry, I got my info from a forum long ago when another member was having trouble with 357 handload OAL not fitting his Trooper (which seems to be shortest among modern 357 revolvers).

"It's a 38 bullet not a 357 and exactly the point of this post." I didn't know there were 357" bullets specifically for 38 Special and not 357 Magnum (there is one bullet with two crimp grooves, manufacturer of mold slips my mind). I thought most 357 magnum revolver cylinders were longer than 38 Special cylinders, but I'm old and could be wrong...

AJC1 · Oct 13, 2022

mdi said:
Sorry, I got my info from a forum long ago when another member was having trouble with 357 handload OAL not fitting his Trooper (which seems to be shortest among modern 357 revolvers).

"It's a 38 bullet not a 357 and exactly the point of this post." I didn't know there were 357" bullets specifically for 38 Special and not 357 Magnum (there is one bullet with two crimp grooves, manufacturer of mold slips my mind). I thought most 347 magnum revolver cylinders were longer than 38 Special cylinders, but I'm old and could be wrong...

I think they should have at least equal space but the 357 is shorter by .100 in spec. The rcbs sil 180 I have works great in 38 and looks ridiculous in 357. It was the first mold I ever bought and I'm way to many down the road to be finally serious about figuring this out.

243winxb · Oct 13, 2022

reddog81 said:
Different guns have different cylinder lengths.

Yes they do. My S&W M28-2 is one of them, when it comes to crimping cast bullets in the crimp groove.

357 Magnums

AJC1 · Oct 13, 2022

A 38 in the cg which I like and a 357 at 1.585

gwpercle · Oct 13, 2022

The 38/357 bullet with two crimp grooves is the Ray Thompson designed Lyman #358156
a 155 gr. SWC with a gas check .
Back in the mid 1960's when I started reloading ... 38 special cases littered the public range floor , free for the sweeping up . 357 Magnum cases were few and far between , Using 38 special brass you could seat the bullet in the lower crimp groove and have about the same case capacity and length of a 357 magnum round to shoot in your 357 magnum revolver. It was prudent to avoid Maximum Loads but mid-range loads worked fine .
For loading 38 special you seated the bullet to the upper crimp groove in 38 special brass .
These worked fine in a S&W model 64 38 Special and a Ruger Blackhawk (three screw) 357 magnum ... those are the only 38 / 357 handguns I own , but no problems chambering the loaded ammo .
That design still is a good bullet for 38 spcl / 357 magnum .
Gary

Critical mold information

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