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257 Roberts

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army_eod

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Joined
Jan 18, 2006
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875
I had a Model 7 in 257 Roberts that I sold.
I have some factory ammo, a fair amount of hand loaded ammo and brass, bullets and reloading dies.
So I have noticed that the ammo is very rare and extremely expensive when you find it.
So I have decided that I need another rifle in that chamber.
Just bid on one. Will keep an eye on others. It is a great cartridge.
Will post when I snag another rifle.
 
I had a Model 7 in 257 Roberts that I sold.
I have some factory ammo, a fair amount of hand loaded ammo and brass, bullets and reloading dies.
So I have noticed that the ammo is very rare and extremely expensive when you find it.
So I have decided that I need another rifle in that chamber.
Just bid on one. Will keep an eye on others. It is a great cartridge.
Will post when I snag another rifle.

257 Robert's was on a short list of cartridges for my last m98 build, along with the 270, and 280, when I bought the 380 ai barrel. Never had a quarter bore but that's the one I'd like to have next. There is just something about that cartridge in an older, controlled round feed action.
 
Great round, it's going to be Awesome with its parent case being 7x57. Last one I had sold to get a few bucks for my dad after his accident at work. It was a beautifully done rifle on a Swede 96 action, and it shot lights out. I really considerate getting one of the kimbers in 257, not sure if there making them now.
 
I had a Model 7 in 257 Roberts that I sold.
I have some factory ammo, a fair amount of hand loaded ammo and brass, bullets and reloading dies.
So I have noticed that the ammo is very rare and extremely expensive when you find it.
So I have decided that I need another rifle in that chamber.
.

I must have waited seven to ten years before I found new cartridge cases, and they were all on Gunbroker. Scalpers found them, purchased the whole lot, and sold them at inflated prices. Oh, well, last piggy to the trough pays for the pleasure.

Industry practice is churn. The cartridge du jour's have to be extremely profitable because there is virtually a cartridge every du jour. Something like the 237 Roberts, old and well established, won't send the early adopters running to the local gunstore to buy, buy, buy. At least there is enough of a demand for brass that every decade or so, cartridge manufacturers puke out cases. Get them while you can.

I am of the opinion old factory ammunition was downloaded in pressure because of all the old Mausers, etc, that had been made into 257 Robert rifles. At least to 1918, the M98's used a cartridge which the mean pressure was 3,000 atmospheres, which is about 43,000 psia. That is one reason 8mm factory ammunition is loaded to 35 Kpsia. However, modern 257 Roberts +P is 58 Kpsia, and I am going to claim, with a 58 Kpsia 257 Roberts, who needs a 243 Win?

I think I read an Gun Digest article on the development of the 257 Roberts. Ned Roberts and buds, spent a lot of time testing various cases, shoulder shapes, powders, bullets, before finally settling on the case we have today. It must have taken them a decade. The results of their efforts is an accurate cartridge that feeds from a double stack magazine, and extracts without issue. Most of today's cartridge du jour's are so straight and sharp shouldered that they can only be fed from single stack magazines, which limits magazine capacity. I consider non finicky rounds as better than finicky rounds.
 
So an old Mauser would not handle new +P rounds?

There are a lot of old damn Mausers out there. And not everyone who caught COVID died from it. Only about 1,000,000 American's did, and they were old geezers, so no one remembers, and no one cares.

Look, the older something is, the more skeptical I am about it. Shall I say, the burden of proof for some antique, proving that it is safe, should be higher, than something new. And yet, there are enough poorly made modern arms on forums, things with cracked lugs, blown barrels, that even new stuff occasionally gives way. Something with 70 year old, or 110 year old steels, made in pre vacuum tube technologies, I think those that claim such things are safe at 60,000 to 80,000 psia loads, they need to develop a non destructive process that proves the material is good. Usually these things don't blow on the first shot, it takes time for the lugs to pound the receiver seats in, and that's when the fun starts!


Pressures, Case Strength and Back Thrust

https://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/pressures-case-strength-and-back-thrust.396/

I have the remains of a Mauser M98 action that was totally destroyed with a standard loaded .22-250 cartridge when the headspace became too long, allowing the case to separate. The brass cartridge head was welded into the ejector slot in the locking lug and part of the case body at the end of the web area expanded and formed between the bolt face and the butt of the barrel in a tight manner, looking a lot like it had been melted and poured into the gap. I had to remove the barrel in order to open the action. Incidentally, the shooter ended up in the hospital emergency room for removal of metal and carbon fragments, his eyes being saved by the glasses he was wearing. All of this was brought about by the failure of the brass case when the soft M98 locking lug seats finally pounded back far enough to make the headspace too long. Perhaps I should add here that Mauser actions are not heat treated like our modern factory actions. They are made from relatively soft carbon steel and then only surface hardened, case hardened, for a very thin, hard surface. When these M98s are reconditioned many shops will lap the locking lugs and often will cut the thin, hard surface completely away, leaving only the soft carbon steel underneath to hold the pounding of the bolt locking lugs in the future. They will pound back over a period of time resulting in too much headspace and a wrecked rifle...or worse.

I have seen nothing to indicate that Mauser, or Yugoslavia, or FN, or or anyone else building 8mm military Mauser actions built these military actions to a higher pressure standard. The average pressure did rise by a couple of thousands in WW2, that may have been because the Military was willing to accept a reduced service life, or that they thought improved production processes produced a cleaner steel. But these rifles were made to a price point, by managers who were only interested in meeting the minimum requirements. No one built military actions out of higher grade materials, or for higher pressure applications, so anyone could regularly use 60,000 psia cartridges in the things one hundred years after the managers and workers retired from this plane of existence.

The risks of higher pressure loads is bolt lug cracking and receiver seat set back, and possibly receiver ring cracking. The shooting community knows what headspace is, but hardly know what cartridge case protrusion is. Cartridge case protrusion is far more safety critical, and headspace gages are a simple means to determine if cartridge case protrusion is correct. If headspace is growing, it is not going to be due to the chamber shoulder moving forward, it will be due to the lugs deforming or the receiver seats seating back. And if enough case sidewall is pull from the chamber, the case head will rupture.

And I don't want to be behind a rifle in which the receiver fails.

qAwfYau.jpg

A bud of mine had a CMP M1903A3 drill rifle receiver. It looked new. He had ground off the tack welds and it looked perfect. He barreled it, shot it, and the headspace grew. He put in a longer bolt, and the head space continued to grow. That's when he took the barrel off. What we concluded was, when the rifle was demilled, someone with an acetylene torch had heated the receiver ring to set the tack welds. That took away the heat treatment and made the steel soft. Which did not matter as a metal rod was pounded into the chamber and the rifle was never supposed to be fired again. I suspect the owner of the above receiver was not as technical minded, the lugs/receiver set back, and ka pow!

Here is an historical low number M1903, and the face of its last owner.

v08rvBG.jpg

There is stuff out, post WW2, that was always dangerous, and not everyone knows.

e0EZZzd.jpg

4QYLX8C.jpg

The shooter above was lucky. I talked to a guy who is a consultant to a major importer and major firearm manufacturer in product liablity cases. I had only a little time to talk, between targets at a Regional. I asked if he had been on a case where someone had died due to a defective firearm, and he had not. However, he remembered lawsuits where the shooter lost eye sockets, lower jaws, had a rifle bolt blow through the jaw and shoulder, and lost hands.

I am going to tell you, the more you shoot, the more you will personally experience malfunctions that catastrophically destroy a firearm part, and you will talk to people who have seen worse. And once burnt, you get twice shy.

It only takes one ship wreck to understand, charging at full speed, at night, through an ice field, is probably not a good idea. Sometimes, they learn too late. Glug, glug.

When anyone asks me how I can best describe my experience in nearly forty years at sea, I merely say, uneventful. Of course there have been winter gales, and storms and fog and the like. But in all my experience, I have never been in any accident... or any sort worth speaking about. I have seen but one vessel in distress in all my years at sea. I never saw a wreck and never have been wrecked nor was I ever in any predicament that threatened to end in disaster of any sort.

Edward J. Smith, 1907, Captain, RMS Titanic
 
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I am of the opinion old factory ammunition was downloaded in pressure because of all the old Mausers, etc, that had been made into 257 Robert rifles. At least to 1918, the M98's used a cartridge which the mean pressure was 3,000 atmospheres, which is about 43,000 psia. That is one reason 8mm factory ammunition is loaded to 35 Kpsia. However, modern 257 Roberts +P is 58 Kpsia, and I am going to claim, with a 58 Kpsia 257 Roberts, who needs a 243 Win?

This is a common perception but Ned Roberts did not design the .257 Remington Roberts and it is not backwards compatible with either version of .25 Roberts as made by Neidner or G&H.
Remington put out the .257 Roberts in the Model 30, a derivative of the big stout 1917. And Winchester in the Models 54 and 70.
Say what you will of metallurgy and design sophistication, these were rifles also made in .30-06 and .270 and nobody gave it a second thought. Yet it took decades for the factories to introduce .257 Roberts +P to get it up to .30-06 chamber pressures.

I can see where the 8mm Remington Special was offered to spare Gew 88s, early 98s, Haenels, etc, but were there really enough people out there building .257s on Spanish Mausers and Low Number Springfields - or rechambering .25 Roberts for factory ammo - to scare Remington into holding the pressure down to LESS than the parent 7mm Mauser? (In CUP, I don't know why the order flipped when they put in a pizeo transducer, but that was not relevant in the 1930s.)
 
Fast forward to today. Here is what she looks like. The receiver is a much better fit with the gaps filled in with the scraps I spoke of in the previous post.
View attachment 1111752
The stock is sanded to 120 grit and the butt plate has been fitted with the white spacer.

View attachment 1111753

View attachment 1111754 View attachment 1111755 View attachment 1111756 View attachment 1111757

The fore end tip blank made from scraps laying around. I plan on using it starting with the yellow birch as the first layer.
View attachment 1111758

I still have lots more work to do and more pictures to follow.

1909 action is typically one of the better actions to build from. Dwm iirc was Berlin factory and likely made with more refined hardening practices.

09 actions are generally more sought after as they were exported to, mostly central America, Argentina was the biggest buyer iirc and most were well taken care of.
 
1909 action is typically one of the better actions to build from. Dwm iirc was Berlin factory and likely made with more refined hardening practices.

09 actions are generally more sought after as they were exported to, mostly central America, Argentina was the biggest buyer iirc and most were well taken care of.

Thank you for bringing my pictures from the other thread to this one. The rifle pictured is one that I am currently building is going to be chambered for 7x57mm. The barrel is a Green Mountain barrel that is short chambered by 0.20" and I will finish ream it.

That is generally true 09's are more popular than ever right now and the price people are willing to pay for them reflects the popularity
 
Thank you for bringing my pictures from the other thread to this one. The rifle pictured is one that I am currently building is going to be chambered for 7x57mm. The barrel is a Green Mountain barrel that is short chambered by 0.20" and I will finish ream it.

That is generally true 09's are more popular than ever right now and the price people are willing to pay for them reflects the popularity
I was happy to get that last cut down 09 Argentine for $300, bottom metal are probably worth $200 or at least what a ptg one would cost. After my 6mms arc project is built I'll start saving for the barrel of the 09 and other parts. I've already did most of the work on the bottom metal and have to contour the rear bridge and drill and tap it along with a bolthandle.
 
So here is the description.

View attachment 1111739


Action Heat treatment

http://forums.accuratereloading.com...71019521/m/4131067862?r=1491098862#1491098862

Timan

23 December 2021 20:33

DWM 1908 and 1909 receivers almost always need reconditioning prior to case hardening. It's rare to find DWM receivers that aren't set back and or just worn out in critical areas like the locking lug seats.

I did not copy the rest of the post as this gunsmith cuts the receiver seats back, to make them flush. I consider any metal part that has gone beyond yield to be toast, as you really don't know if some crack, or some other defect, is below the surface. Milling material off the receiver seats then increases the amount of case head out of the chamber, which is not advisable.

Basically, go spend the same amount of money on something new, lets say, post WW2. Not something from 1909 or 1910.
 
Mine is a Remington 722. It killed a lot of whitetails in my Grandfather’s hands.

It doesn’t like the 117 gr BT bullets that Hornady loads in the light magnum line. But standard 100 gr PSP rounds from the big makers work very well. :thumbup:

Stay safe.
 
I had a Model 7 in 257 Roberts that I sold.
I have some factory ammo, a fair amount of hand loaded ammo and brass, bullets and reloading dies.
So I have noticed that the ammo is very rare and extremely expensive when you find it.
So I have decided that I need another rifle in that chamber.
Just bid on one. Will keep an eye on others. It is a great cartridge.
Will post when I snag another rifle.
I would like to build one on a Savage short action.
 
There are a lot of old damn Mausers out there. And not everyone who caught COVID died from it. Only about 1,000,000 American's did, and they were old geezers, so no one remembers, and no one cares.

Look, the older something is, the more skeptical I am about it. Shall I say, the burden of proof for some antique, proving that it is safe, should be higher, than something new. And yet, there are enough poorly made modern arms on forums, things with cracked lugs, blown barrels, that even new stuff occasionally gives way. Something with 70 year old, or 110 year old steels, made in pre vacuum tube technologies, I think those that claim such things are safe at 60,000 to 80,000 psia loads, they need to develop a non destructive process that proves the material is good. Usually these things don't blow on the first shot, it takes time for the lugs to pound the receiver seats in, and that's when the fun starts!


Pressures, Case Strength and Back Thrust

https://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/pressures-case-strength-and-back-thrust.396/

I have the remains of a Mauser M98 action that was totally destroyed with a standard loaded .22-250 cartridge when the headspace became too long, allowing the case to separate. The brass cartridge head was welded into the ejector slot in the locking lug and part of the case body at the end of the web area expanded and formed between the bolt face and the butt of the barrel in a tight manner, looking a lot like it had been melted and poured into the gap. I had to remove the barrel in order to open the action. Incidentally, the shooter ended up in the hospital emergency room for removal of metal and carbon fragments, his eyes being saved by the glasses he was wearing. All of this was brought about by the failure of the brass case when the soft M98 locking lug seats finally pounded back far enough to make the headspace too long. Perhaps I should add here that Mauser actions are not heat treated like our modern factory actions. They are made from relatively soft carbon steel and then only surface hardened, case hardened, for a very thin, hard surface. When these M98s are reconditioned many shops will lap the locking lugs and often will cut the thin, hard surface completely away, leaving only the soft carbon steel underneath to hold the pounding of the bolt locking lugs in the future. They will pound back over a period of time resulting in too much headspace and a wrecked rifle...or worse.

I have seen nothing to indicate that Mauser, or Yugoslavia, or FN, or or anyone else building 8mm military Mauser actions built these military actions to a higher pressure standard. The average pressure did rise by a couple of thousands in WW2, that may have been because the Military was willing to accept a reduced service life, or that they thought improved production processes produced a cleaner steel. But these rifles were made to a price point, by managers who were only interested in meeting the minimum requirements. No one built military actions out of higher grade materials, or for higher pressure applications, so anyone could regularly use 60,000 psia cartridges in the things one hundred years after the managers and workers retired from this plane of existence.

The risks of higher pressure loads is bolt lug cracking and receiver seat set back, and possibly receiver ring cracking. The shooting community knows what headspace is, but hardly know what cartridge case protrusion is. Cartridge case protrusion is far more safety critical, and headspace gages are a simple means to determine if cartridge case protrusion is correct. If headspace is growing, it is not going to be due to the chamber shoulder moving forward, it will be due to the lugs deforming or the receiver seats seating back. And if enough case sidewall is pull from the chamber, the case head will rupture.

And I don't want to be behind a rifle in which the receiver fails.

View attachment 1111709

A bud of mine had a CMP M1903A3 drill rifle receiver. It looked new. He had ground off the tack welds and it looked perfect. He barreled it, shot it, and the headspace grew. He put in a longer bolt, and the head space continued to grow. That's when he took the barrel off. What we concluded was, when the rifle was demilled, someone with an acetylene torch had heated the receiver ring to set the tack welds. That took away the heat treatment and made the steel soft. Which did not matter as a metal rod was pounded into the chamber and the rifle was never supposed to be fired again. I suspect the owner of the above receiver was not as technical minded, the lugs/receiver set back, and ka pow!

Here is an historical low number M1903, and the face of its last owner.

View attachment 1111710

There is stuff out, post WW2, that was always dangerous, and not everyone knows.

View attachment 1111711

View attachment 1111712

The shooter above was lucky. I talked to a guy who is a consultant to a major importer and major firearm manufacturer in product liablity cases. I had only a little time to talk, between targets at a Regional. I asked if he had been on a case where someone had died due to a defective firearm, and he had not. However, he remembered lawsuits where the shooter lost eye sockets, lower jaws, had a rifle bolt blow through the jaw and shoulder, and lost hands.

I am going to tell you, the more you shoot, the more you will personally experience malfunctions that catastrophically destroy a firearm part, and you will talk to people who have seen worse. And once burnt, you get twice shy.

It only takes one ship wreck to understand, charging at full speed, at night, through an ice field, is probably not a good idea. Sometimes, they learn too late. Glug, glug.

When anyone asks me how I can best describe my experience in nearly forty years at sea, I merely say, uneventful. Of course there have been winter gales, and storms and fog and the like. But in all my experience, I have never been in any accident... or any sort worth speaking about. I have seen but one vessel in distress in all my years at sea. I never saw a wreck and never have been wrecked nor was I ever in any predicament that threatened to end in disaster of any sort.

Edward J. Smith, 1907, Captain, RMS Titanic
Just build on a modern Savage action.
 
My first and last custom build was a .257Robt on a 1938 Spanish LaCorouna action that had been bubba’d long before I had it reworked.
It has an E.R.Shaw 22”light weight contour barrel set in a Bishop #2 Grade walnut feather wt. contour. It’s Timney trigger suffered a fatigue crack so was replaced with a Bold adjustable trigger. It weighs 7lbs with a Leupold 2-7x VariX II scope w/Leupold Dot reticle, set in Leupold rings. Brownells bolt handle.

I’ve killed over 100 white tail and mule deer with it as well as several pigs. Once about 50 prairie dogs near Big Sandy Montana. My wife and both daughters have killed their first deer with it.

It’ll handle most any sane Roberts load which approaches the .25/06, but my favorite is the old classic 100gr bullet over 45.0gr of IMR4350 for 3,000fps.
I once shot a 3-shot group at 200yds that “touched”. 49.0gr of surplus H4831 under a Hornady 100gr Interlok.
Did I mention that it’s ACCURATE! image.jpg

P.s. It has the “so called” 3” chamber. It prefers a 2.995” seating depth.
 
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I’ve got one built on an interwar era Springfield action with a Niedner barrel but late enough to be the standard Remington cartridge. My great grandfather killed a lot of hawks with an 87 gr bullet over 42.0 gr of IMR 3031 back when it was the latest thing.

On a 30-06 action, magazine length isn’t much of a problem. It’s on the project list for loading now that I have all the parts (but time, young kids seem to feed mostly on time and energy). I figure the rifle has the strength to handle a +p load (-06 chamber and a robust barrel). I just don’t see much point pushing it either. If I need more energy I can use a 30-06.
 
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