For those who choose a shotgun over a carbine for defense:

A 12 gauge 3.5” magnum 18 pellet 00 buckshot load makes a convincing argument.

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You're in 458 WM recoil territory. I'm sure it will make an impression on whatever you hit, but I'll stick with a 2 3/4" load. Even that is in 300 WM recoil territory.

I keep handguns, shotguns, and an AR carbine ready. They fill different roles. I don't like a shotgun indoors. Inside my home the ranges are too close and a shotgun offers me no advantage over the carbine. I actually prefer a handgun indoors so I can have one hand free.

The shotgun is for when we take it outside. Shotguns and buckshot have limited ranges but would be effective from anywhere in or near my home to the property line in any direction. If I ever need to go farther than that I have AR's. And the AR could fill all 3 roles (indoors, close range outdoors, or long range) better than a handgun or shotgun could do all 3.

A 12 gauge 3.5” magnum 18 pellet 00 buckshot load makes a convincing argument.

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That's just posturing. Probably never ran a defensive course with a load of those. Sounds manly though. The current modern loads are well designed and much more shootable but not Manly to some.

BLACKHAWKNJ said:

The traditional argument for the shotgun is you just point and pull, don't need a great deal of marksmanship ability. A short barrel is easier to maneuver in tight spaces, harder for an assailant to grab. Nowadays many people hear "carbine" and think of an AR-15, IMHO that's a rifle..

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According to Merriam Wester:
carbine noun (car·bine ˈkär-ˌbēn -ˌbīn)
1: a short-barreled lightweight firearm originally used by cavalry
2: a light short-barreled repeating rifle that is used as a supplementary military arm or for hunting in dense brush

An AR-15 or M4 is exactly a carbine. An M-1 Garrand is a "main battle rifle" and they wanted something that was more lightweight, less powerful and used more lightweight ammo so that a soldier could carry more rounds.A 5.56mm NATO round weighs less than half of what a round of 30-06 weighs. They also wanted selective fire.
But, prior to that, rifles were large contraptions and using one would be vastly inconvenient on a horse, hence the development of the carbine.

If I had one it would have a bayonet fixed. Again, depends on your skill, tactical requirements-house on separate lot, rural vs. suburban, rowhouse, apartment, other family members, etc.

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Because nothing makes your rifle more deadly than turning it into a spear? To me, the whole point of a firearm is to put distance between you and your attacker.

What type of defense? Home defense? Defense of property for those who live on acreage? Defense against two or four-legged predators while out in the woods, desert or mountains?

ClicheBro said:

Have you really learned how to use a carbine?

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And at what point do you consider when someone has "really learned how to use a carbine?"

ClicheBro said:

What's your reason? Are you simply more experienced and comfortable with the shotgun? Have you really learned how to use a carbine?

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Well that's a passive-aggressive way to phrase a question, if I ever did see one.

I'm not weighing in, except to say I'm not wasting time and effort on threads I know will be prematurely closed by the mods.

~Beck

The M-16 and its derivatives have been the "Main Battle Rifle" of the US military since 1970. And strictly speaking the M-1 Carbine is not a true "carbine" because it is not a short barrel version of a longer rifle. Our last true carbine was the Krag in its various models. A fixed bayonet has an intimidation factor that must be seen to be appreciated.

Handgun, shotgun or rifle.
The only difference is in your ability to use it.

JCooperfan1911 said:

A 12 gauge 3.5” magnum 18 pellet 00 buckshot load makes a convincing argument. The Benelli Supernova Tactical can use that shell and is set up for social work.

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Because it is so loud indoors you won't be able to hear anything else.

Any defensive shooting had better be at very close range with no other option or you are going to be in trouble in this state. We, well. the people that make the laws, aren't enlightened enough, to have "stand your ground laws" here.

Why a shotgun you ask? It makes a bigger hole.

GEM said:

That's just posturing. Probably never ran a defensive course with a load of those. Sounds manly though. The current modern loads are well designed and much more shootable but not Manly to some.

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No, its not just posturing. If you have ever seen anything hit with that kind of load at point blank range you will understand. Its perfectly shootable unless you are a complete wimp.

A few things to clear up... post #9 stated that "only an 8 to 9" spread at 25 yards".. not exactly true... Down here in south Florida our range officers tested standard improved cylinder 12 ga. riot guns (18 - 19" barrels, bead sight, four shot tube) with 2 3/4 00 buck rounds... and found all of them (Mossberg, Remington) reliably produced a pattern that spread one inch from the muzzle - at 7 yards, a 7" pattern, at 15 yards (I prefer meters...) a 15" pattern - time after time...This was long before flite control rounds were ever developed (as well as back when the only police shotguns we used, mostly were either Mossberg 500's or Remington Wingmasters -mid eighties era...). Note I mentioned an improved cylinder choke - a cylinder choke would definitely produce a larger pattern... At bad breath range a 12ga. will just leave a fair size hole (at six feet - only a 2" "pattern" if you can call it that. Yes, these days using Flite Control rounds or something similar you can expect your pattern to be smaller - allowing you to engage a target with success at greater distance but you'll rarely ever find a house with rooms longer (or larger) than 45 feet unless we're talking mansion - not house... Remember as well that an armed citizen has legal obligations so you'd better not be shooting unless you have no other choice... You never want to be in a situation where investigators are questioning whether it really was a defensive (read justified...) use of force....

Lastly the impression that you can always land a few pellets on a target with that shotgun without aiming isn't exactly true either - if you're not aiming - you won't be hitting (and that's something I emphasized to my officers whenever the topic came up...). none of this spray and pray stuff if you actually want to survive an armed encounter where shots are fired - in your direction...

Still each of us must choose our armaments and give some thought to our own defensive needs at our dwellings - then live with the choices we make. Things change and defensive needs change when you're away from home or living out in the countryside with few, if any neighbors close by...

Although I considered my shotgun my primary weapon on any hot calls for many years... I am not a gun fighter. I don't want to be one either. The threat handled without any shots fired is far better than the one that ends up in gunplay - any way you look at it...

lemaymiami said:

A few things to clear up... post #9 stated that "only an 8 to 9" spread at 25 yards".. not exactly true...

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Yeah, some people like to believe whatever is convenient. I patterned my 590s and found that one of the two loads patterned (with both guns) just wider than the human torso target (which was 17" wide) out at 25 yards. It's a European brand, Nobel Sport, and has 12 00 buck pellets, though it's technically considered a 2-3/4" shell not a 3".

But that wide spread doesn't matter much to me because the farthest distance in my house is 16 yards wall to wall, and that's in the basement where a loose pellet or two will hit foundation. However, I also checked the load at 15 yards, and everything is on the target with both guns.

So I guess my question for the OP would be, if I can shoot 12 pellets at once, that each weight about 53gr and are around 0.32" diameter; can put them all on target at the maximum distance inside my home; and I can handle the recoil and the operation of the firearm (which I can); where home defense is concerned, what do I need a carbine for?

I moved from a home defense pump shotgun with 18" barrel to a pistol carbine because:

I shoot right handed and due to old injuries to my right shoulder recoil from the shotgun I had was a real problem for me and I couldn't practice without paying a very real price.

I live in a urban area surrounded by neighbors, medium sized houses and small yards. I like the accuracy I can produce with the carbine for most any home/self defense distance and situation. I sold the shotgun to help offset the cost of the carbine, I didn't sell the ammo and I have a couple other shotguns that would shoot it just fine if needed.

I very much didn't like the way the shotgun handled loaded up with 00 buck in the tube. The weight our front was very real to me compared to my carbine.

No disputing the effectiveness of a shotgun but it had 5+1, my carbine is 17+1. With the much better handling in my opinion and extra capacity I am comfortable with my decision.

Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!

My "under the bed" gun is an old Stevens 311 SxS loaded with #4 bird shot. My "beside the bed" gun is the same .45 I carry every day. I've never shot the .45 indoors without hearing protection and I've never shot the shotgun indoors at all. It may only matter in my head, but after shooting both outdoors without hearing protection, it seems the shotgun would be less likely to cause permanent hearing damage to myself and my family members.

I prefer a handgun. But why? Good question...
If I'm out in public, the handgun I'm carrying is it; I am not "fighting my way back" to a rifle or shotgun.
Home defense? The handgun that is on me whenever I'm dressed (and handy otherwise) is better than a rifle or shotgun that is not.

I would choose shotgun because of familiarity. I can load and shoot any gun in my house in the dark, but the shotgun is by far the easiest for me. Prefer a Remington 870, but am equally comfortable with all of my 12 ga shotguns. I've shot my AR quite a bit, but am not as comfortable with it as I might be if I shot it more. Comfort of use is the most important when seconds count.

For me it's more of effectiveness vs collateral damage. A turkey load will put a damper on anybody inside house range. I can handle my AR or riot gun equally well. But I use a large hound dog instead.

CDW4ME said:

I prefer a handgun. But why? Good question...
If I'm out in public, the handgun I'm carrying is it; I am not "fighting my way back" to a rifle or shotgun.
Home defense? The handgun that is on me whenever I'm dressed (and handy otherwise) is better than a rifle or shotgun that is not.

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Agreed on fighting your way back. I hate that expression.

If I'm home my EDC on my side is the first "go to". And thats a G26 with an X-Grip with a G19 mag and a spare mag of the same weak side.

Beyond that a 18.5" 12g pump loaded with 3" magnum slugs and a G17 are the only other guns I keep loaded in the house.

I do have have a few other guns with mags loaded ready to go but not "loaded and GTG".

I live out in the sticks so the 12g makes more sense as a "multi-tool". There are regular reports of bears around here and I've personally had an encounter with a bobcat.

For both four and two legged critters my go to aside from my side arm is my 12g.

One pull of the shotgun trigger puts 9 .35 caliber holes in an attacker. Unless your carbine has a full-auto switch it only makes one hole.

Inside a house both options require the same degree of aim. Why would I not choose the one that makes more holes and is easier in my ears?

Good Ol' Boy said:

If I'm home my EDC on my side is the first "go to". And thats a G26 with an X-Grip with a G19 mag and a spare mag of the same weak side.

Beyond that a 18.5" 12g pump loaded with 3" magnum slugs and a G17 are the only other guns I keep loaded in the house.

I do have have a few other guns with mags loaded ready to go but not "loaded and GTG".

I live out in the sticks so the 12g makes more sense as a "multi-tool". There are regular reports of bears around here and I've personally had an encounter with a bobcat.

For both four and two legged critters my go to aside from my side arm is my 12g.

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I sold my farm this year and bought a townhouse in a tiny town. I used to not have to worry about neighbors. Now it's a thing to contemplate.
12 ga is the swiss army knife of firearms.

I do not own a carbine and do not particularly want one. I do own several shotguns. That is my reason.