.22lr killing ability taken too lightly?

I've often wondered how effective they would be as sniper rifles. A place like Ukraine. Send them about 10,000 suppressed pink Cricketts (maybe not pink). Modify the stock to insert a 100 round box of ammo in a pocket behind the butt stock and put them to work. A guy shot in the throat may or may not be killed, but most likely put out of action. A nasty form of guerrilla warfare designed to encourage Russian soldiers to lay down arms and go home. The whole lot of them cheaper than 1 patriot missile shot and in the big picture of things, could be a lot more effective.

Any merit to this or no?

Howa 9700 said:

I've often wondered how effective they would be as sniper rifles. A place like Ukraine. Send them about 10,000 suppressed pink Cricketts (maybe not pink). Modify the stock to insert a 100 round box of ammo in a pocket behind the butt stock and put them to work. A guy shot in the throat may or may not be killed, but most likely put out of action. A nasty form of guerrilla warfare designed to encourage Russian soldiers to lay down arms and go home. The whole lot of them cheaper than 1 patriot missile shot and in the big picture of things, could be a lot more effective.

Any merit to this or no?

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Better to arm them with more effective weapons of war to more immediately repel the enemy force. Guerrilla warfare like this proposal is great for eroding morale of an occupying force which has been spread beyond its capacity, but for most of Ukraine, especially in the early days of the invasive war, real weapons of war would be much more effective than a single shot 22LR.

But modern military invasion tactics and equipment are designed to preclude utility of a strategy like this proposal. “Softening targets” through artillery fire and aerial bombing, naturally, has a greater influence than single shot volley fire from a hoard of locals with a bunch of Crickets.

Double Naught Spy said:

I would find another surgeon as what he says doesn't jive with reality. Does any of that make sense that a relatively low velocity small projectile would cause HE-like wounds. Did he explain the mechanism by such a tiny, underpowered round exhibited such remarkable capabilities? Did he also talk about how .22 lr inside a head will just ping pong back and forth off the insides of the cranium until the brain is soup? That is something I have heard several times in the past also purportedly from surgeons lamenting how the .22 lr is so much more deadly than other calibers.

There is NOTHING about a .22 that causes it to fragment badly in the body unless you have frangible round or that it hits bone, particularly heavy bone, but that goes for just about any bullet, right?

Check out...
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2688536
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/03/27/upshot/deadly-bullets-guns.html (summary article)
...where .22 and .25 weren't nearly as lethal as the non-High Explosive rounds being fired like 9mm and .45 acp.

He really said .22 lr wounds look like HE wounds? Had he ever seen an HE wound?

I am sure .22 lr fragments are hard to find just like with other bullets fragment. That is why they have X-rays and when the fragments are really tiny or difficult to remove, sometimes some get left behind, regardless of caliber.

Whenever I read medical journal info on ballistic wounds, I never seem to find any mention of the HE nature of .22 lr wounds. I wonder why that is?

There is nothing magical about .22 lr expect some people's opinions of it. It may be underrated by some, but it is definitely overrated by others.

ANY PROJECTILE THAT HAS THE CAPABILITY TO PENETRATE SOFT TISSUE IS DANGEROUS AND COULD BE DEADLY. THOSE THAT PENETRATE MORE THAN A JUST A FEW INCHES CERTAINLY MAY BE DEADLY, BE IT A BB GUN OR .50 BMG. A lucky hit on a near surface major blood vessel can result in death with a fairly minor injury. The issue of death isn't so much a caliber issue, but a biological one. The link between caliber and lethality is tissue damage. By and large, .22 lr tend to produce less tissue damage than larger calibers (.25 acp being a possible exception).

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Yeah that's what I thought. The only thing that could possibly make sense is if he was talking about 223

ms6852 said:

I worked at a level one trauma center for 38 years. And saw many things that just did not make sense. I've seen a 100 pound woman survive 6 shots to the face and head from a .357 magnum and so many more die from a single shot with a 22, and not necessarily a head shot. There are claims and personally I do not know for sure but I seem to remember that the number of deaths that occur from a 22 was higher, not because it was the caliber of choice chosen, but because this caliber was more readily available and many that were shot, were shot by accident or self inflicted. In the end, when it is time to go, it is not the caliber that makes the difference, but the good Lord, GOD that decides.

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I recall reading a post from a trauma surgeon in some southern city about how common it was for people to walk into the ER with wounds from 22's who would be treated to close them up and make sure nothing life critical was hit and then released same day. Commonly people would claim they accidently shot themselves or just refuse to discuss how they wound up with gunshot wounds in an effort to not involve law enforcement. He surmised the reason why the numbers of people killed by a 22lr are so high was because of how much more common it was for people to be shot with 22 rifles than by centerfire handguns, and that the numbers on lethality are badly skewed because of how underreported the non fatal cases are.

Howa 9700 said:

I've often wondered how effective they would be as sniper rifles. A place like Ukraine. Send them about 10,000 suppressed pink Cricketts (maybe not pink). Modify the stock to insert a 100 round box of ammo in a pocket behind the butt stock and put them to work. A guy shot in the throat may or may not be killed, but most likely put out of action. A nasty form of guerrilla warfare designed to encourage Russian soldiers to lay down arms and go home. The whole lot of them cheaper than 1 patriot missile shot and in the big picture of things, could be a lot more effective.

Any merit to this or no?

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No. The main problem is that if you are close enough to shoot them with a Cricket, they are definitely going to be in close range with much more numerous and lethal weapons. That reminds me of the time a Sniper shot at me and a couple other guys, I hopped on a Jeep with a mounted M-60 and returned fire. When I learned about .22 rifles like my Winchester 74 being issued as defense against a German invasion of England I thought about that very thing. You would need great cover and a great escape route. Even then it is very risky. In the book, Black Horse Riders" my buddy was picking off NVA in a bunker at range. After he hit a few with his scoped M-14 they realized he was a sniper located him and concentrated fire on his position. He survived and was rescued.

Howa 9700 said:

I've often wondered how effective they would be as sniper rifles. A place like Ukraine. Send them about 10,000 suppressed pink Cricketts (maybe not pink). Modify the stock to insert a 100 round box of ammo in a pocket behind the butt stock and put them to work. A guy shot in the throat may or may not be killed, but most likely put out of action. A nasty form of guerrilla warfare designed to encourage Russian soldiers to lay down arms and go home. The whole lot of them cheaper than 1 patriot missile shot and in the big picture of things, could be a lot more effective.

Any merit to this or no?

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Off topic, but...
Had better luck sending the CNC technical package to machine a simple 30mm scope mount for both the readily available Mosin Nagant and Mauser 98. Somebody from Poland sent the optics and worked in country training irregular snipers. They found the full packet of public domain US military training manuals translated to UKR quite useful also, and some fun things rigged up with a cheap drone, a remote servo motor, and a 7.62x39 single shot zip gun or a light charge of HE and improvised shrapnel. These things raised hell with the RE in terriroty occupied by the Russkies. The .22 RF using Lapua biathalon ammo had some very specific and limited uses also, but not as a sniping weapon per-se.

I've seen a decent amount of people shot with a 22. Several suicides, many assaults, and several murders. In my opinion, bullet selection matters. Many 22s are made of soft lead and flatten out and fragment when hitting bone while other punch right through.

Also having spent two combat tours in Iraq, the 22 is in no way producing wounds similar to HE shrapnel.

I’ve killed a deer with a standard behind the shoulder shot at about fifty yards with a Ruger 10/22. The deer was covered in warts and 16 year old me, didn’t realize it wasn’t a serious condition. I thought I was doing the little fella a favor. He fell where he stood and died within a few seconds.

I’ve seen more than a couple of deer killed by 22 LR when squirrel hunters happened upon them. The seasons overlap and Mississippi has no cartridge/caliber restrictions during rifle season. Those deer seemed plenty dead.

I’ve killed a few coyotes, bobcats and feral dogs over the years with a 22 LR as well and never had any issues I can think of.

All that aside, I’d never recommend a 22 LR for anything much larger than a raccoon if something else was available, but a 22 LR has plenty of killing ability.

LimaCharlie said:

A 22 may kill something, but my Weatherby 460 Magnum rifle is quicker.

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That is completely depended on where the shot is placed. I could go length wise through the body missing critical things with my 50 BMG that has twice the energy of the 460 WM and still have an animal that’s flopping around where a CNS hit with a .22 and they are “lights out”.

What more powerful/destructive rounds can give you is a greater margin for error.

I knew an old Cajun dude who lived in the swamp who took a lot of deer with a .22LR and a spot light.

It's not the 22lrs ability to kill that is questionable, but rather it's ability to reliably do so quickly and cleanly. It may work just fine to slaughter livestock in a controlled environment, but can it do so with wild game or a threat that's trying to hurt you? No it can't.

Might find this interesting, https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF

I'm sure it's been said already in some capacity, but:

Do not conflate lethality with the ability to kill humanely.

.22 LR really shouldn't be used to take animals larger than about 30 pounds, and at close range. It is a small game and pest cartridge.

There's also the question of bullet performance. I've recovered a lot of .22 bullets from various critters while skinning. The Aguila 38 subsonic, which was my preferred trapping load would generally not make it to the far side of the hide on a head shot coyote. On a raccoon or fox, I'd often find them resembling a "good" mushroom poking out of the back side of the skull. Looking not unlike the old Core Lokt adds in your favorite hunting magazine.

The Stingers, which were a MUCH higher velocity loading even in my .22/45 looked more like a light soft point from a higher velocity round, having shed some mass and fragments along the way. These were often random body hits. They generally didn't exit a coyote, they would blow out a fox or raccoon without heavy bone or a hard quarter angle. Not a good fur load, but wicked deadly when head/neck shooting a rooster pheasant or throwing some hail marys at vermin of sorts.

Conventional RN solid HV .22s as made by all the big ammo companies and available cheaply were a crapshoot. I think the lead alloy varied, even lot-to-lot. The Fed seemed somwhat more consistent. I shot quite a few coons with Fed Lightnings. They would often pass through, but left acceptable pelt damage. The ones I did recover were generally quite distorted but nothing resembling a mushroom. My favorite was the Rem Thunderbolt when they came out with the lighter weight soft lead wax lubed TC style lead bullet for a short time. That bullet had issues going off out of battery in common semi automatics when it hit the feed ramp so was quickly discontinued. Those were murder on fur, and passed through with minimal pelt damage. I think they did a couple 180s after they hit, then pushed through slowly. When that bullet was discontinued, I played with a few things for awhile, then settled on the Aguila subsonic and cheapo Fed bulk plated HV HP for coon hunting. Both of those gave me the consistency I was looking for.

Lately I've been using the Armscorp HV hp for critter control as I got a large supply when my FIL passed. The bullet performance is great, accuracy is OK. I'll be going to Aguila 38HP when those are gone, as they shoot better in my rifles. The Fed cheapo HPs seem all over the map lately! I've had them from the same box act anything like hard solids to frangible.

Moral of the story, if you're going to use your .22 for anything larger than rabbits, test some bullets in a critter simulant first. Not all HP act the same!

theotherwaldo said:

Last that I heard, more people are killed with a .22lr than any other round.
That may have changed recently but I doubt it... .

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When I was a teenager a bud of mine was killed by his 22lr rifle. He put the rifle on his side of a barb wire fence, climbed and pulled the rifle through by the muzzle. A barb snagged the trigger and shot him in the chest. The bullet bounced off his spine into his heart.

Oh yes, a 22lr will kill.

jmorris said:

That is completely depended on where the shot is placed. I could go length wise through the body missing critical things with my 50 BMG that has twice the energy of the 460 WM and still have an animal that’s flopping around where a CNS hit with a .22 and they are “lights out”.

What more powerful/destructive rounds can give you is a greater margin for error.

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If I can do a CNS hit with a 22, I can do one with any other gun.

LimaCharlie said:

If I can do a CNS hit with a 22, I can do one with any other gun.

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Yeah, but if you miss something more destructive that a .22 can be helpful.

Post # 55 seemed to be funny. At least guns were included; from the movie "Tremors", with redhead Reba McEntyre etc.

Not many of us have a sense of humor these days... It costs nothing.

The only thing my father couldn't kill with a .22 long rifle cartridge on our catfish farm was a beaver.

There has been an awful lot of white tail deer shot with a 22 lr in the head. It’s not something I’ve done. But I grew up with folks who did it to put meat on the table when they didn’t have a job.

I grew up in the Appalachian mountains in the 70's shooting deer for food or out of garden was not a big deal 1 if you were local and 2 if you didn't waste it. here is what I know from experience. I have killed between 20-25 deer with a 22 LR I have never lost a deer shot with a 22 I was taught to never take an iffy shot and where to shoot them. As far as poachers most are poor people feeding their family. Wounded animals draw attention

Lots of good dialogue here. I've killed lots of critters with several .22s I own, but mostly small game. I'm also keenly aware of the limitations. I used a 17Mach2 for squirrels for many years after noticing that I had fewer crawl-offs with the 17Mach2 and longer shots too. Some crawled off even when hit solid. I've killed 100s of prairie dogs with my Remington 541S. Hellava gun, but saw many p-dogs drag themselves into the hole even after a dead center hit through the lungs. In the last few years, my 17HMR is the smallest caliber rifle I use for p-dogs. Almost zero crawl-offs. That 17HMR packs a wallop that .22s cannot match.

I'm not a big hunter but I have engaged in several prairie dog hunts and dispose of unwanted critters around our hobby horse farm.

Obviously, prairie dogs hit with high speed varmint ammunition are killed instantly with the explosive nature of the high speed varmint bullets.

But around the farm, I trap raccoons and opossums when they bother the barn cat's food. Then, I dispose of them with a 22 LR shot to the head, or maybe two. Maybe the first shot is enough to put the animal out of my misery, but they do not seem to die as quickly as I think.

A couple years ago, a ground hog was not afraid of me in the horse pasture which allowed me to shoot it with a 22LR revolver. It took three or four shots to get the animal to stop moving. Maybe a couple shots would have been enough but I did not want it to run off injured. I've planned to use a 32 caliber revolver if the next ground hog I experience is a dumb as the first one.

I'm not sure my 22LR shots are adequate for a reliable kill or not. If I get some kills with the 32 caliber revolver, I'll get some more data.

As a side note, opossums carry EPM disease which is deadly to horses. As far as we are concened, there is no good live opossum.

.22 LR?

How thick is the critter's head? What is the angle of the shot?

Some serious calibers -- mostly handgun bullets -- have ricocheted off bear and hog skulls. Not tall tales. Welcome to Earth.
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