45 undersized die

As for an undersized die increasing neck tension vs “simply” preventing set back I’d love to see an advocate do some testing and prove it. (Or a non-advocate perform an objective test.)

@JHTexas has a good explanation for why (in 9mm anyway) one could get the latter without actually getting the former. I hope I characterized that correctly and I don’t pretend (nor presume) to speak for him.

Try as I might, using an inertia hammer, I cannot tell the difference in friction/resistance from standard and undersized 9mm dies. This includes taper crimping and not taper crimping, expanding and not expanding—with slick, plated 115gr bullets, one whack is all it takes each time, every time.

I want to prove it’s true (that it increases neck tension) but haven’t been able to given my level of expertise. So I’m left with comparisons. (Yes, I disclose my limitations and biases.)

If it wasn’t such a PIA test, I’d have done this in 45acp by now too, but I have to go outside where I won’t bother anyone and potentially trash bullets and I don’t like that. Besides all my 45acp cases have already been undersized I think

I do know for 45acp, two whacks maybe three is my norm for breaking down 230gr RN .452”

And that includes undersized & standard, all expanded I think, and some taper crimped but most not. But I can’t tell you if all the “threes” were crimped and undersized thin walled cases. But these were done a few here and few there for the sole purpose of breaking them down and using for something else, not testing. Even a lame test.

Gunfu_Blaster.45 said:

I load pretty hot. My Berry's 200gr SWC were 960fps with Titegroup and 1100fps with Longshot. 250gr XTP were doing 1070fps with 7.9gr of Longshot, 1105fps with 8gr. The TG loads is not high pressure. The Longshot loads are in 45super cases meant to be loaded up to 45k psi and I'm loading to less than 30k psi, I'm sure.

Click to expand...

Where did you find your 45 Super data? I just looked at Hodgdons site and they only go up to a 230gr bullet in 45 Super. And their data stops at 7.3gr of Longshot.

I would tread very carefully with what you're doing.

chris

Walkalong said:

I'd love to see documentation of all of this. But no matter how well the gun is built, we do not encourage loading over pressure. And again, .451 is standard for jacketed bullets in the .45 ACP, has been forever. If a die set can't load them with good neck tension, you have a sizer issue or an expander issue.

Click to expand...

My favorite range and plinking 1911A1 is a Thompson/Auto Ordinance 70-Series copy. They’re famous for cracking at the spring housing due to frame battering. Mine has a silicone buffer to prevent that from happening; or at least delay it. I use .451” jacketed, .452-.454” lead and keep my velocities in the mid-range. If you have to hot-rod a .45, what you really need is a good revolver.

For dies I use a mix of Hornady and Lee dies. My sizing and seating dies are part of a Hornady Custom set a fellow gave me because he claimed it was scratching his brass. He called it overpriced garbage. I called it dirty and gummed up with WD40. I’m not sure if it’s undersized but I do get a slight waspish-waisted look to my handloads even with jacketed. The dimensions are probably pretty close to SAMMI minimum but I’ve never checked.
It works and I like it better than the carbide Lee I was using - but I don’t use it for decapping. I do like the Hornady flair M-die, too. I’m typically a fan of the Lee PTX but for .45ACP and AutoRim I flair then fill. It just seems to work better for me somehow.

I think maybe that is the moral of the story: do what works for you even if it sounds crazy to everyone else. But don’t be surprised when someone else says what works for them is fine and doesn’t want to change to do things your way.

SAAMI .45 ACP bullet diameter is MAXIMUM .452" jacketed, .453" lead with a whopping +0, -.003" tolerance.
I can say from personal experience that while a .450" cast and coated bullet is in spec, it is nothing but trouble to load. I used my thickest brass and a plug made to flare only without expanding to get rid of the stuff.

GeoDudeFlorida said:

My favorite range and plinking 1911A1 is a Thompson/Auto Ordinance 70-Series copy. They’re famous for cracking at the spring housing due to frame battering. Mine has a silicone buffer to prevent that from happening; or at least delay it. I use .451” jacketed, .452-.454” lead and keep my velocities in the mid-range. If you have to hot-rod a .45, what you really need is a good revolver.

For dies I use a mix of Hornady and Lee dies. My sizing and seating dies are part of a Hornady Custom set a fellow gave me because he claimed it was scratching his brass. He called it overpriced garbage. I called it dirty and gummed up with WD40. I’m not sure if it’s undersized but I do get a slight waspish-waisted look to my handloads even with jacketed. The dimensions are probably pretty close to SAMMI minimum but I’ve never checked.
It works and I like it better than the carbide Lee I was using - but I don’t use it for decapping. I do like the Hornady flair M-die, too. I’m typically a fan of the Lee PTX but for .45ACP and AutoRim I flair then fill. It just seems to work better for me somehow.

I think maybe that is the moral of the story: do what works for you even if it sounds crazy to everyone else. But don’t be surprised when someone else says what works for them is fine and doesn’t want to change to do things your way.

Click to expand...

Well said.

I too use those buffers in all but one of my pistols—Berettas and 1911s. The slide on the remaining one (a 1911) won’t return to battery with the buffer and I’m too lazy to figure out why. (Actually I know why generally but am too lazy to mess with it)

Talk about crazy—I’ve recently tried NOT expanding at all in both 9mm and 45acp when using plated bullets.

With a light chamfer on the case mouth and carefully raising the ram, the bullet seats just fine regardless of sizing die type I had used.

But please don’t tell anyone as I’m not prepared to face the ridicule from folks here if they found out.

Note that jacketed bullets are loaded in rifles without flaring, just an expander, usually on the decapping spindle, and a deburring chamfer.

Walkalong said:

I'd love to see documentation of all of this. But no matter how well the gun is built, we do not encourage loading over pressure. And again, .451 is standard for jacketed bullets in the .45 ACP, has been forever. If a die set can't load them with good neck tension, you have a sizer issue or an expander issue.

Click to expand...

I didnt really keep a written record. I have put about 800 rounds of 45super through my Glock 30S , you'll have to take my word for it.

Gunfu_Blaster.45 said:

I didnt really keep a written record. I have put about 800 rounds of 45super through my Glock 30S , you'll have to take my word for it.

Click to expand...

I believe this below thread says it all regarding publishing actual data—just FYI. I’m sure I’ll be corrected if I’m wrong.

Jim Watson said:

Note that jacketed bullets are loaded in rifles without flaring, just an expander, usually on the decapping spindle, and a deburring chamfer.

Click to expand...

Being long and skinny really does really keep them in alignment with the case mouth as they enter.

The only way I can do that with short fat bullets, is if I am using a GSI bullet feeder that holds them straight as they are being seated.

Like this case that’s next in line for a coated bullet and the one in the front that’s seated and ready to be “crimped”.



If I try that with a regular seat die, they get shaved more often than not.

jmorris said:

Being long and skinny really does really keep them in alignment with the case mouth as they enter.

The only way I can do that with short fat bullets, is if I am using a GSI bullet feeder that holds them straight as they are being seated.

Like this case that’s next in line for a coated bullet and the one in the front that’s seated and ready to be “crimped”.

View attachment 1174987

If I try that with a regular seat die, they get shaved more often than not.

Click to expand...

I’m sure they would or could with that contraption and I’d be afraid to stick my fingers in there to hold ‘em steady.

But using my SS slow and steady and a Redding competition die I don’t shave a thing. But I’m not going to win any production contests either.

CQB45ACP said:

I’m sure they would or could with that contraption and I’d be afraid to stick my fingers in there to hold ‘em steady.

Click to expand...

Yeah, wouldn’t want fingers that close to danger. This is shaky but better view of how their feeders operate.


The feeder holds the bullet in place while the case comes up through the feeder disk and seats the bullet to depth as it does.

jmorris said:

Yeah, wouldn’t want fingers that close to danger. This is shaky but better view of how their feeders operate.

Bullet fed 650

www.youtube.com

The feeder holds it in place while the case comes up through it and the bullet is seated into it.

Click to expand...

Nice as usual

Walkalong said:

I don't doubt you have run hot rounds through your pistol, wasn't questioning that at all. If you want to run hot rounds through your pistol, it's your business and risk.

I am concerned about your understanding and risk awareness when it comes to the reloading process.

Y'all be careful out there.

Click to expand...

My reloads work and feed just fine and they are ready for more. They are very snug in my barrel, more so than factory. They plunk perfectly. I seat bullets without flaring or crimping. I test for neck tension by pressing them against the table and putting all my might into them they will not setback. I dont have signs of pressure on primers. I dont get shavings of plated bullets, it happened only once when seating the bullet went wrong, but it was fixed immediately. Velocities are on par with what is expected. My SD and Spreads are very tight, within 10fps at times.
Only feeding issues I had were with SWC and was fixed by adjusting the OAL from 1.225 to 1.265 inches. When completed my reloads are indistinguishable from factory rounds except in my barrels chamber, where factory rounds have a very tiny amount of play my reloads have zero play and still glide in and out perfectly with just a tiny amount more friction. Sometimes the round is airtight in the chamber when plunk testing, it still glides right out nicely when it pops away. Like I said, I experienced no feeding issues, any cycling issues I had was only due to needing a slightly stronger charge on my standard pressure loads that hardly cycle my build Glock and the case rolled of the side of the slide and fell at the feet. Just a lower charge than the rest that were ejecting about 1ft away. I experienced the exact same with some factory standard pressure rounds and was expected in my setup.
My Glock shows absolutely zero signs of even regular wear. It still looks and feels like new

ballman6711 said:

Where did you find your 45 Super data? I just looked at Hodgdons site and they only go up to a 230gr bullet in 45 Super. And their data stops at 7.3gr of Longshot.

I would tread very carefully with what you're doing.

chris

Click to expand...

I looked at 460Rowland data. I know what I am doing.
There is also alot of information on 45super loads on Glocktalk forum that is useful.

Firing this up again—

Just did another unscientific comparison test for tension, breaking down four 45acp dummy rounds with hammer:

Two were undersized cases then .452” Berry’s 230gr plated seated @ 1.260” without expanding nor crimping—two whacks to unseat.

Two were standard sized then loaded with same bullet again without expanding/crimping—three whacks to unseat.

id est quod id est

PS. Dummy rounds were created to test for setback in WC 1911. None.

CQB45ACP said:

Firing this up again—

Just did another unscientific comparison test for tension, breaking down four 45acp dummy rounds with hammer:

Two were undersized cases then .452” Berry’s 230gr plated seated @ 1.260” without expanding nor crimping—two whacks to unseat.

Two were standard sized then loaded with same bullet again without expanding/crimping—three whacks to unseat.

id est quod id est

PS. Dummy rounds were created to test for setback in WC 1911. None.

Click to expand...

Both dies are the Lee brand?
Did the bullet diameter change before seating to after removing?

JHTexas said:

Both dies are the Lee brand?
Did the bullet diameter change before seating to after removing?

Click to expand...

Yes both Lee and no change and appearance wise no sign of use not even scratches.

That is both sizers we’re Lee

see we

CQB45ACP said:

Firing this up again—

Just did another unscientific comparison test for tension, breaking down four 45acp dummy rounds with hammer:

Two were undersized cases then .452” Berry’s 230gr plated seated @ 1.260” without expanding nor crimping—two whacks to unseat.

Two were standard sized then loaded with same bullet again without expanding/crimping—three whacks to unseat.

id est quod id est

PS. Dummy rounds were created to test for setback in WC 1911. None.

Click to expand...

So many variables.
In the end it really comes down to how you treat your ammo.
If you load and unload the same cartridge every day - load in the morning and unload at night - then setback is a definite possibility. CWP holders will need to address the issue if they load/unload their semiautomatic pistol daily carry every day using the same cartridge properly loaded from the magazine. It’s not an issue for EDC of revolvers.
People like myself who store their handloads in cardboard boxes stacked on shelves should be concerned regardless of the weapons type. Gravity is not your friend and constant pressure on the bottom box of a too-tall stack can have consequences. Springs in lever rifles are another story with the same moral.

So much for setbacks, what about pull? An impact hammer is a pretty good analogy to recoil except for about a dozen variables. Pulling in revolvers is recoil induced. Light recoil = Light pull. In self loaders pulling is from seating and depends on slide velocity, bolt velocity, chamber dimensions, etc. and isn’t much of a factor. Kinda like setback in revolvers and bolt actions. If you tried you could probably create measurable bullet pulls in a self loaders action but it would take an effort.

I learned a long time ago not to stack flimsy boxes too deep and not to ignore recoil energy. Been doing fine with that for a while now.

Good luck with your quest.

GeoDudeFlorida said:

see we

So many variables.
In the end it really comes down to how you treat your ammo.
If you load and unload the same cartridge every day - load in the morning and unload at night - then setback is a definite possibility. CWP holders will need to address the issue if they load/unload their semiautomatic pistol daily carry every day using the same cartridge properly loaded from the magazine. It’s not an issue for EDC of revolvers.
People like myself who store their handloads in cardboard boxes stacked on shelves should be concerned regardless of the weapons type. Gravity is not your friend and constant pressure on the bottom box of a too-tall stack can have consequences. Springs in lever rifles are another story with the same moral.

So much for setbacks, what about pull? An impact hammer is a pretty good analogy to recoil except for about a dozen variables. Pulling in revolvers is recoil induced. Light recoil = Light pull. In self loaders pulling is from seating and depends on slide velocity, bolt velocity, chamber dimensions, etc. and isn’t much of a factor. Kinda like setback in revolvers and bolt actions. If you tried you could probably create measurable bullet pulls in a self loaders action but it would take an effort.

I learned a long time ago not to stack flimsy boxes too deep and not to ignore recoil energy. Been doing fine with that for a while now.

Good luck with your quest.

Click to expand...

Thanks much. Now, please help me identify just what my quest may be. I just kinda flop around.

O

CQB45ACP said:

Yes both Lee and no change and appearance wise no sign of use not even scratches.

That is both sizers we’re Lee

Click to expand...

The next logical step would be to do a quick comparison of the two dies.
Would you mind measuring the I.D. of those two dies? If not, no worries…
If you insert your calipers about .3” it will reach the small diameter of the carbide insert easily.
My standard die inside diameter is very round with a nice finish and uniform case leade. It measures .4645”
The undersized die that just came in for evaluation is out of round and overall not a good copy, has to be exchanged.
I attached a pic of my Lee Standard

JHTexas said:

O

The next logical step would be to do a quick comparison of the two dies.
Would you mind measuring the I.D. of those two dies? If not, no worries…
If you insert your calipers about .3” it will reach the small diameter of the carbide insert easily.
My standard die inside diameter is very round with a nice finish and uniform case leade. It measures .4645”
The undersized die that just came in for evaluation is out of round and overall not a good copy, has to be exchanged.
I attached a pic of my Lee Standard

Click to expand...

That’s a sizing die?

Anyway, quickly my standard looks like .454 or something. I’m on the way out and don’t have time to mess with it now.

You said logical step…to what?

CQB45ACP said:

That’s a sizing die?

Anyway, quickly my standard looks like .454 or something. I’m on the way out and don’t have time to mess with it now.

You said logical step…to what?

Click to expand...

You are comparing the results of using a standard to a undersized die.
The results albeit subjective resulted in a difference in bullet retension.
Why? So the next step is to compare the dies size. It might not be what you expected and help understand the results.
Again, if you aren’t wanting to measure them, no worries…

CQB45ACP said:

That’s a sizing die?

Click to expand...

Yes

JHTexas said:

You are comparing the results of using a standard to a undersized die.
The results albeit subjective resulted in a difference in bullet retension.
Why? So the next step is to compare the dies size. It might not be what you expected and help understand the results.
Again, if you aren’t wanting to measure them, no worries…

Click to expand...

Right.

Probably tomorrow

CQB45ACP said:

Right.

Probably tomorrow

Click to expand...

I’m thinking the goal of understanding the benefits of the undersized die is two fold, Bullet Retention & Setback Resistantance, both improved.
Let me know if that’s not the intention.