OP
OP
9mmGoon
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This is a piece out of the bucket. Icant see any sign of a bulge.
Is my old 9mm brass the problem here?
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I would suspect this might be a process issue. I think the OP mentioned loading in batches of 50 and having a failure rate of about 1 in 60 with chrono readings about as expected on non-failing loads. I suspect either the first or last case in each batch is getting significantly overcharged.
Either that or some of that brass was shot with mercuric primers someone had lying around and was mixed in with good brass.
Either that or some of that brass was shot with mercuric primers someone had lying around and was mixed in with good brass.
bullseye308
Member
Many folks back about 30 years ago used brasso to clean their brass. We now know that is a bad idea because it can weaken the brass. I'm guessing this is a possibility that an ammonia based cleaner may have been used which may have weakened some of the brass to the point of failure. When the testing is done with new brass the results should tell the tale. I'm betting the brass is the culprit for some reason or another.
OP
OP
9mmGoon
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Ok, i tumble this brass in a wet media tumbler with no additive. I then dry the brass in a Lyman brass dryer for 3 hours.
Next day i separate out 50 pieces into a loading tray. I then resize all 50 pieces in a single stage hornady press using an RCBS 9mm carbide die careful to drop each one in a Hornady case gauge checking for length and fit before returning it to a separate loading tray.
Then,,i bell each piece individually to the minimum amount to which the 124gn projectile will sit in the case mouth. Return the cases to the previous loading tray.
Next i prime each case with a Hornady hand primer with CCI 500 small pistol primers i bought at BassPro using the correct shell holder and inspect them individually for correct seat depth which should be slightly below the surface of the case base. The primed case are inserted into a separate loading tray in the inverted position so the primer is visible.
Next, i sit a sized, checked, belled, primed case on my warmed up and calibrated digital hornady scale and zero it to the case weight. After i pick up the case off the scale i note the value of the negative sum displayed by the scale.
I then charge the case with a hornady powder thrower equipped with the hornady pistol charge meter.
I return the case to the scale and measure the charge. If i see 4.7 i pick up the case an note the negative value displayed by the scale. If either the charge weight is incorrect or the displayed negative value has changed i dump the case and start over with a zeroed scale. If the charge weight is correct and the negative values match i put the case back in the loading tray. At this point it should be noted my reloading room is a constant temperature with humidity kept below or at 30%.
After all 50 cases are charged and in the loading tray i visually inspect them for uniform charges.
Next i seat the projectile using an RCBS seat and crimp die to the recommended coal of 1.150 +/- 2 thousandths.
In the hornady manual, it is recommended to use little to no crimp. As a bit of a safety measure im careful to use what i consider a little crimp. I have inspected and measured some factory cases at the case mouth to determine what anyone with a brain would consider satisfactory.
At this point i return to the case gauge for fitment and measure the coal with a calibrated caliper set to standard means of measurement.
Satisfied i have completed a round to every possible safe standard imaginable i repeat the process until i have 50 completed rounds.
The brass in question was purchased from Midway USA some 30 years ago. It is 100 percent Winchester and labeled once fired range brass. The brass came in a 3 gallon bucket and is for the most part clean. How or with what it was cleaned is unknown.
However, i can guarantee you there are zero overcharged cartridges. It is my opinion some cases have become brittle/hardened for whatever reason.
OP
OP
9mmGoon
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I have studied up on this very thing. Apparently there are several chemicals that will break down the zinc quite quickly. This process also commonly turns the brass pink or pinkish according to the severity. The brass came fairly clean. How and with what is unknown. The brass is physically harder than the new Remington brass i now have. Conducting crush tests have revealed some cases are quite brittle.
OP is the first person I've heard of that weighs the powder charge......4.7 grains.......with and by subtracting weight of the individual brass case. The accuracy of that method being highly suspect in my mind. Would be curious to see what charge weights were if about 10 of these were pulled.
In theory, the math works but scale has to be sensitive enough to pick up the difference.
In theory, the math works but scale has to be sensitive enough to pick up the difference.
lordpaxman
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I do it all the time. Realize it’s a digital scale and the tare function zeros the scale with the empty case. I even keep a primed empty case of every caliber with its grain weight marked on the side so when I do setups and calibrations I’ll check to see if scale matches again with that case.
When I’m loading a production run on the progressive a QC check is to pull a primed case, tare, powder charge and check the throw. A digital scale makes that check very easy and you don’t slow down the run very much at all.
@9mmGoon , perhaps you did this, but did you weigh your bullets and confirm their weight? I would also check their diameter. Perhaps they’re a bit oversized contributing to pressure. It’s a mystery for sure, but even if 50 reloads in different brass are ok, it doesn’t necessarily point to the old brass as the issue. That’s why I suggested someone else load the old brass and try it.
I got a power pack for my LabRadar since eating batteries is out of the question.
CQB45ACP
Member
I’m not advocating doing it at all in part because it’s a lot of effort that is otherwise easily avoided and likely more precise, BUT why wouldn’t it work just fine?
It would work on my cheap Lyman digital. Just re-emagine the cartridge case as the pan. If it’s weighed empty, then with powder, the difference is obviously the powder.
So somebody check my math......
4.7 to 5.5 = 117 %
104.7 to 105.5 = 100.76%
Before I'd trust that method, I'd want to weigh an individual case at least 10 times, and it had better give exact same weight all 10 times. And if it passes that test, add a 5 grain check weight and it has to weigh the same another 10 times. Add it, subtract it. Always the same? I don't use digital scales, so don't know if they are accurate enough to always pick that up. I do have digital calipers and have found my dial calipers to be more reliable. The zero never changes like it does on the digital.
4.7 to 5.5 = 117 %
104.7 to 105.5 = 100.76%
Before I'd trust that method, I'd want to weigh an individual case at least 10 times, and it had better give exact same weight all 10 times. And if it passes that test, add a 5 grain check weight and it has to weigh the same another 10 times. Add it, subtract it. Always the same? I don't use digital scales, so don't know if they are accurate enough to always pick that up. I do have digital calipers and have found my dial calipers to be more reliable. The zero never changes like it does on the digital.
Blue68f100
Member
You said failure, What kind of failure this time. Fail to fire (did you try a second time), fail to feed. Hopefully you did not blow up a gun.
Have you started back tracking and looking for anything that may be out of whack so to speak? Have you tried everything exactly the same except for new cases yet?
And that's an odd way to weigh powder charges. You should really weigh each charge.
And that's an odd way to weigh powder charges. You should really weigh each charge.
In past 24 hours, have spent entirely way too much time pondering OP's plight, primarily from my own perspective, as I've watched a couple utube videos of 9mm guns exploding in the hands of shooters. As with OP, I am keen to avoid having that happen to me at all costs.....as I"m sure we all are.
So when I look at the 9mm I'm loading for, when I drop a loaded round in the chamber to plunk it, the case buries all the way to the extractor groove. You can see the case wall, extractor groove shoulder, but that is about it. The case walls appear to be fully supported by the barrel's chamber. Internet seems to think most gun makers proof test those barrels to as much as 3X max charge weights......and barrels don't blow up.........so as long as case is fully inserted and supported by the barrel, as mine is, no worries there. I do note that Starline currently has a warning on the 9mm luger page warning about using +P and higher loads in their cases in some S&W models. Unsupported chambers. But again, that does not apply to me.
So next step is to make sure a loaded case will slip into the chamber.......does not engage the lands preventing case from seating, not leaving some portion of the case walls protruding. Gun goes into battery. That is the normal and happens millions of times each day, and they don't blow up. So with care in seating depth, got that covered.
Past that, I've never really given much thought to the cycling mechanism a 9mm semi auto uses. I have now. Unlike a bolt gun, with fixed barrel and fixed action, with bolt locked into place into action by sturdy bolt lugs......with a pressure escape value to boot........these short recoil actions have no such thing. A chambered round is only held in place by a stout recoil spring acting on the weight or inertia of the slide and barrel, which at moment of ignition of powder, are mechanically locked into place. As powder ignites and gas expands.........case walls are forced out to seal the expanding gases......leaving only one way out, and that is down the barrel. And on one side is a bullet that in my case weighs 124 grains. On the other side is the inertia and weight of the action.....say around 2 pounds....aka 32 ounces - 14,000 grains......... which is held firmly against the case head by the recoil spring. The weight difference is about 100:1. So the give point is the bullet, which is sent down barrel, but there is still enough ooomph in the charge to send the slide and action in the other direction. As it travels back, barrel only travels a short distance before it hits a dead stop...the barrel and slide mechanically separate....barrel stops, slide continues on backwards, and in doing so, the extractor pulls the now pressure relieved case from the chamber.....it hits the ejector pin and is ejected.....slide now hits a hard stop and then under force of recoil spring is drawn forward back to it's resting position.......and picks up and chambers the next round in the process. Rinse and repeat.
So how can that screw up? It occurs to me that there is a minimum force needed from the powder charge to force the action to cycle. I have experienced that.....finding the spent case still in the barrel. Gun was new, recoil spring still factory stiff, charge was lite. Then there is "normal"......enough to cycle the action, but synched up to weight of the action, such that gun cycles but felt recoil is light. A smooth, easy shooter. But what happens at other extreme? Too strong of a charge? I notice those as they get to max. Noise is loud and felt recoil is harsh. Now go way beyond that........now enough to overcome the inertia of the weight of the slide and the recoil spring and force the slide back while there is still enough pressure left in the chamber to blow out the case the moment the case is pulled from protection of the barrel's chamber? Since the barrel and action are mechanically locked together it is hard to imagine the case head moving the action apart from the barrel, unless the whole thing.....including parts of the barrel are blown off with it. Wouldn't want to be standing around when that happened.
The remaining weak link in this chain of events does seem to be the integrity of the case, except in most instances, the integrity of the surrounding barrel is going to bail you out. Unless there is a crack / escape valve....at point of shoulder and extractor groove. A hot load, combined with a weak or damaged case enough to blow out? Maybe it is?
As one who is now sitting on several thousand pieces of random range brass, the integrity of the cases now has me a bit spooked. Have noticed some with splits near the head and others that have been incredibly hard to resize. Going forward, going to kick those out as I find them. In short, if not my own fired brass, going to look at it pretty hard, as I don't know how many times it has been fired, or from what. And since I don't know the history of those, use those for lite to modest loads for easy shooting target practice. When loading the full power stuff, switch to my stash of new Starline.
Next, since I'm still kinda new to handguns, going to stick to large bulky powders like Red Dot, Unique, Herco, etc, where a normal load is a full case of powder to start with. Easier to do as I"m still using a single stage, and less likely to double charge anyway. Powders like A#5 and True Blue.......where a max charge is a 60% case fill.......to be avoided by me no matter how good they look on paper or how good they meter thru a powder measure. And if the day comes when my volume rises to the point where I think I"ll need a progressive, it will have a powder check die.
And lastly, stick to the plan where the seated depth of the bullet's base is never seated any deeper than the depth of the bullet's base from load data. Load data depth is the minimum depth.........a no go zone.
Do all that and I think I can stay out of trouble.
So when I look at the 9mm I'm loading for, when I drop a loaded round in the chamber to plunk it, the case buries all the way to the extractor groove. You can see the case wall, extractor groove shoulder, but that is about it. The case walls appear to be fully supported by the barrel's chamber. Internet seems to think most gun makers proof test those barrels to as much as 3X max charge weights......and barrels don't blow up.........so as long as case is fully inserted and supported by the barrel, as mine is, no worries there. I do note that Starline currently has a warning on the 9mm luger page warning about using +P and higher loads in their cases in some S&W models. Unsupported chambers. But again, that does not apply to me.
So next step is to make sure a loaded case will slip into the chamber.......does not engage the lands preventing case from seating, not leaving some portion of the case walls protruding. Gun goes into battery. That is the normal and happens millions of times each day, and they don't blow up. So with care in seating depth, got that covered.
Past that, I've never really given much thought to the cycling mechanism a 9mm semi auto uses. I have now. Unlike a bolt gun, with fixed barrel and fixed action, with bolt locked into place into action by sturdy bolt lugs......with a pressure escape value to boot........these short recoil actions have no such thing. A chambered round is only held in place by a stout recoil spring acting on the weight or inertia of the slide and barrel, which at moment of ignition of powder, are mechanically locked into place. As powder ignites and gas expands.........case walls are forced out to seal the expanding gases......leaving only one way out, and that is down the barrel. And on one side is a bullet that in my case weighs 124 grains. On the other side is the inertia and weight of the action.....say around 2 pounds....aka 32 ounces - 14,000 grains......... which is held firmly against the case head by the recoil spring. The weight difference is about 100:1. So the give point is the bullet, which is sent down barrel, but there is still enough ooomph in the charge to send the slide and action in the other direction. As it travels back, barrel only travels a short distance before it hits a dead stop...the barrel and slide mechanically separate....barrel stops, slide continues on backwards, and in doing so, the extractor pulls the now pressure relieved case from the chamber.....it hits the ejector pin and is ejected.....slide now hits a hard stop and then under force of recoil spring is drawn forward back to it's resting position.......and picks up and chambers the next round in the process. Rinse and repeat.
So how can that screw up? It occurs to me that there is a minimum force needed from the powder charge to force the action to cycle. I have experienced that.....finding the spent case still in the barrel. Gun was new, recoil spring still factory stiff, charge was lite. Then there is "normal"......enough to cycle the action, but synched up to weight of the action, such that gun cycles but felt recoil is light. A smooth, easy shooter. But what happens at other extreme? Too strong of a charge? I notice those as they get to max. Noise is loud and felt recoil is harsh. Now go way beyond that........now enough to overcome the inertia of the weight of the slide and the recoil spring and force the slide back while there is still enough pressure left in the chamber to blow out the case the moment the case is pulled from protection of the barrel's chamber? Since the barrel and action are mechanically locked together it is hard to imagine the case head moving the action apart from the barrel, unless the whole thing.....including parts of the barrel are blown off with it. Wouldn't want to be standing around when that happened.
The remaining weak link in this chain of events does seem to be the integrity of the case, except in most instances, the integrity of the surrounding barrel is going to bail you out. Unless there is a crack / escape valve....at point of shoulder and extractor groove. A hot load, combined with a weak or damaged case enough to blow out? Maybe it is?
As one who is now sitting on several thousand pieces of random range brass, the integrity of the cases now has me a bit spooked. Have noticed some with splits near the head and others that have been incredibly hard to resize. Going forward, going to kick those out as I find them. In short, if not my own fired brass, going to look at it pretty hard, as I don't know how many times it has been fired, or from what. And since I don't know the history of those, use those for lite to modest loads for easy shooting target practice. When loading the full power stuff, switch to my stash of new Starline.
Next, since I'm still kinda new to handguns, going to stick to large bulky powders like Red Dot, Unique, Herco, etc, where a normal load is a full case of powder to start with. Easier to do as I"m still using a single stage, and less likely to double charge anyway. Powders like A#5 and True Blue.......where a max charge is a 60% case fill.......to be avoided by me no matter how good they look on paper or how good they meter thru a powder measure. And if the day comes when my volume rises to the point where I think I"ll need a progressive, it will have a powder check die.
And lastly, stick to the plan where the seated depth of the bullet's base is never seated any deeper than the depth of the bullet's base from load data. Load data depth is the minimum depth.........a no go zone.
Do all that and I think I can stay out of trouble.
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243winxb
Member
Look at the powder level in every case, before seating a bullet, even if using a progressive press. A loading block is a good way to compare powder levels. The 9mm uses little powder, but a Double Charge, should stand out.
Brass, 30 years ago may have been roll sized, to remove the Glock Bulge. Brass may be damaged & weak from this process?
Charlie98
Member
And, yet, here I stand, alone, saying the brass is compromised.
N555
Member
If a high density spherical powder is double charged or even 1.5x charged the bullet won't seat as those powders offer little compression.
I like the fluffy powders too.
OP
OP
9mmGoon
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OP
OP
9mmGoon
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You’re not getting it…. I put the primed case on the scale,,zero the scale,,remove the case from the scale and simply note the negative value displayed. After i put powder in the case i place it back on the scale. At this point the scale should read exactly 4.7. Now, if it does read exactly 4.7 i will then remove the case from the scale and see what the negative value is at this point. If the negative value i have now is different from the original negative value i dump the charge and start iver with that particular primed case.
This usually starts happening when the battery is getting low and this is my way of confirming everything is as it should be and is as accurate as i can possibly make it.
OP
OP
9mmGoon
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The unsupported part of a semi automatic pistol chamber is at the feed ramp
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Soonerpesek
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That, my man, is a lot of effort on your part.
I would agree that particular way would make it NEARLY impossible to mischarge a case...
I commend you for being so thorough, I'm not quite sure I would have the lasting patience to do that....
OP
OP
9mmGoon
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Yes, i have pulled 25 bullets this morning and checked charge weights. 24 @ 4.7 and 1 @ 4.6.
These guys have misinterpreted my method of weighing powder charges. I felt like I explained it well enough but apparently its hard for some to wrap their brain around. Idk, the point is i weigh them all. I use hornady projectiles exclusively and the weight of them is very consistent among the 100s i have weighed of various calibers. I do not buy factory seconds.
Perhaps i should put up a YT video explaining my “process” because comprehensive reading seems to have died out haha
CQB45ACP
Member
This has been beat to the DNA—I just saw it on ancestry.com
OP declare victory, buy some new brass, load the way you have been and either you or your next of kin can tell us what happens.
OP declare victory, buy some new brass, load the way you have been and either you or your next of kin can tell us what happens.
OP
OP
9mmGoon
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Thank you very much for being a beacon of light for comprehensive reading. This has been my method from day one when i noticed a discrepancy in the values during my initial “best practices” process development.That, my man, is a lot of effort on your part.
I would agree that particular way would make it NEARLY impossible to mischarge a case...
I commend you for being so thorough, I'm not quite sure I would have the lasting patience to do that....
OP
OP
9mmGoon
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He has misinterpreted what im doing
CQB45ACP
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OP
OP
9mmGoon
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That’s not what im doing, but the average weight of a primed 9mm case is around 59gn. This is also irrelevant because you are calculating the difference of the weights as a percentage rather than simply adding or subtracting to find the difference.
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