Coastal Brown Bear Defense/Black Tail Deer 45-70 handload....is it wishful thinking?

Well, if you use a solid and not an expanding bullet, all you are going to do is drive a .458 diameter hole in one side and out the other.

I don't think you should be worried.

Worse case scenario carry 3 solids and 2 expanding, or with a side saddle even more.

Those 45-70 guides in stainless with the peep sights are quite the lookers !

Perhaps read this thread. Has some Pics also. Does not directly discuss Brown Bears but will give you the gist of it.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=736954

Get a good 405 gr government style bullet cast from 20-1 load it to 13-1400 fps. That load has a hundred and some year success story behind it.

Let me know when you have it, I have some nice 400-405 grain cast bullets you could try

I wouldn't be at all worried about it being to much for those little deer. This is because we are talking about a very large, but relatively low velocity projectile. @ 1300-1400 fps there shouldn't be the kind of damage so commonly seen with a high velocity rifle round, the 30-06 would be a prime example. It will definitely leave a nice hole, but it shouldn't blow tissue to bits like a 2,800+ fps bullet 1/3 the weight would.

GS

Take grubby up on his offer- he makes good bullets

Sounds like a good idea to me

bhhacker,
The 45-70 with 400+grn hardcasts at 1300-1400 fps will penetrate a grizz, plenty. You're putting to much emphasis on speed. You can't think in terms of "high power" rifles when thinking about the 45-70. They are two different animals. As you stated earlier, you know the 45-70 isn't a "long range" hunting caliber. But 0-150 yards? It can be loaded to take any big game animal on the planet. Your gun, with that bullet, at that speed, is more than up to the task. And no, it doesn't destroy the amount of meat that you might think it would. Less than your '06.

Inside 100 a 45-70 will kill anything a 30-06 will.

I have loads for my 1895 that will push a 405 JSP over 1600 fps, a 350 JSP right around 1900 fps.

You won't be under gunned but I would likely pick something that didn't weigh so much for just walking around.

I have proven that mine will penetrate the rears axle of a truck and still have enough energy to destroy itself on the hardened parts on the inside.

I was surprised to see how much damage the gun did to rabbits, at about 30 yards it tore the back half off.

A 405 gr bullet at "trapdoor" velocity will shoot thru a buffalo, from side to side, and nearly go thru one length wise. It'll take out a grizzly, and at the regular velocity recoil is manageable, eliminating the flinch factor making shot placement a surer thing.

I thought everyone in Alaska carried a 45-70 as a handgun?

This old thread . "survey says" 12 gauge.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=578437

For hunting I believe in using anything you enjoy using, within reason. When it comes to choosing a gun that may be used to defend my life I have no room for romance or nostalgia, just performance.

I've owned various 45-70's since the 1970's. Given a choice between a Marlin 45-70 with any load available and a quality 30-06 bolt action with the best loads available, the 45-70 stays in the safe.

Not saying the 45-70 round won't work, but the best 30-06 loads give equal or better penetration and function through a more reliable rifle. With guns with as much recoil as either of these generate there is no difference in the rate of aimed fire.

If a 30-06 doesn't leave you feeling comfortable I've always felt one of these in 338 WM might be the perfect big bear defense rifle.

jmr40 said:

Not saying the 45-70 round won't work, but the best 30-06 loads give equal or better penetration and function through a more reliable rifle. ]

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How do you get that a 30-06 is more reliable?

^^ Or penetrate as deep? Listen, I own rifles in both cartridges. Love them both. But that being said, there's no way in the devil's kingdom I would choose an '06 over a 45-70 for brown bears. Will the '06 kill a brownie? Sure it will. Will an '06 penetrate from it's chest to its sphincter? Will it enter, break one shoulder, go though the vitals, break the other shoulder, and say "bye bye" as it exits the other side? Ummm....? BUT, The 45-70 with 400+ grainers WILL.

I will defend the '06 all day long as a worthy viable hunting cartridge for Brownies. But I won't even attempt to defend it against a 45-70 on Brown bears in a potentially life threatening situation. It's like choosing a 45-70 over a 600NE for Africa. The 45-70 can and has been down that road. But your NE cartridges are just more suited.

They have been killed with a lot less. The 45-70 has likely been used to kill at least one of everything in the last 148 years. Wiki clams it has taken the big 5 in Africa and I don't doubt it. It beats the sticks people used before firearms.


FWIW My sisters house backs up to NORAD's fence and when a bear comes over into their yard they just go inside but they have used pepper spray before too.

Think about things for just a second. The mantra always is having to have a 45-70 wound up to 458 win mag to be worth consideration for a defensive or large game cartridge, yet just the meer mention of the 454 casull or the 480 Ruger gets the testosterone slobbers to flowing... Ever compared the ballistics of either of those hand cannons to the standard 45-70 loads?

Thanks everyone. apparently i need to research this load more because I was thinking that i had to have 400+grainers going around 2000fps to cover my butt in case of brown bear defense.

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I would indeed be very impressed if you could shoulder that loading more than a hand full of times.

A 400 grain slug traveling at normal speeds 1,000-1,300 FPS would be more than adequate for your needs.

The Hornady 350gr Round Nose can easily be launched at 1900fps from a Marlin 1895...

It's designed for the .458, so at the slower velocities there is not that much expansion...

I'm old fashioned so I like a plain base 405gr cast bullet in the 45-70. That said IMO I think a 300gr or 350gr Hornady semi-jacketed bullet will do both bear and deer very well. I fear a 405gr cast bullet will destroy way too much meat on deer and the 300gr bullet will do less damage yet still supply enough punch for those extremely large bear you have up there. (but that's a guess since I have never shot a bear the size you face)

Don McDowell said:

Think about things for just a second. The mantra always is having to have a 45-70 wound up to 458 win mag to be worth consideration for a defensive or large game cartridge, yet just the meer mention of the 454 casull or the 480 Ruger gets the testosterone slobbers to flowing... Ever compared the ballistics of either of those hand cannons to the standard 45-70 loads?

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Yep, it never ceases to amaze me that the 30-30 delivers more energy to the target at 100 yards than the 44 Magnum does at the muzzle. Yet the 44 has the reputation as a behemoth and the 30-30 as marginal.

Lost Sheep said:

Yep, it never ceases to amaze me that the 30-30 delivers more energy to the target at 100 yards than the 44 Magnum does at the muzzle. Yet the 44 has the reputation as a behemoth and the 30-30 as marginal.

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That's because 2200 fps from a rifle sounds wimpy while 1500 fps from a handgun sounds monstrous...