Looking for suggestions for CAS lever gun.

Howdy

The Spencer is cool, but you can't compete with it. You have to cock the hammer separately, unlike all other lever guns, and I believe the magazine only holds 7 rounds. Most CAS stages call for 10 rounds of rifle. You can use the Spencer, it is legal, but it would put you at a pretty big disadvantage.

I shoot an Uberti Henry chambered for 44-40 myself, but the Henry is a bit of a niche gun. You have to be very careful how you load it, disaster can strike if you are not careful. I only shoot Black Powder in mine, and with no wooden forend the barrel gets very hot in the summer. Plus you have to make sure you move your hand out of the way so you don't prevent the tab at the bottom of the follower from moving. If you block the tab, the rifle stops feeding. The Henry is very, very cool, but probably not the best choice for a beginner.

There are several versions makers of replicas of the Colt Lightning pump rifles, but you seldom see them on the firing line. Many are prone to jamming, the best are the ones made by Pedersoli.

Most serious shooters use an Uberti replica of the 1873 Winchester. Most of the really serious shooters use the Short Rifle, (not carbine) chambered for 357 Mag and they shoot light 38 special loads out of them.

Marlins are good, and less expensive than Ubertis, but their quality has been very spotty recently.

Driftwood Johnson has given you good advice.

The 1873 in .357 mag (which can also use .38 Specials with little or no tuning) or 1866 yellowboy in .38 Special is going to be used by the fastest shooters.

Either of those models in .44-40 or .38-40 will work fine in Classic Cowboy category since there is a requirement for caliber to be .40 or greater. These calibers shoot cleaner when using blackpowder cartridges, although .45 Colt and .357/.38 get used a lot with blackpowder too. (I don't know if the '66 has been made in .38-40, just saying..)

Model 1892 reproductions are cheaper but tend to be more sensitive to cartridge case length variations, and '92s are a whole lot harder to disassemble for cleaning or tuning. Many beginning shooters choose a '92 to start with and it is heartbreaking to see them struggle with jams. I have never seen a match won with a '92 above the club level. Model '94s chambered for pistol cartridges have even worse reputations.

If you don't care where you rank, and some shooters don't, then it doesn't matter what you choose. But most of us hate to wind up consistently at the bottom of the list, even though we will never be national champions.

So with that as a preamble, buy a '73 in the caliber you love. It is easy to take apart and clean and fiddle with, and you will be able to resell it to another shooter for about what you paid for it someday.

original

Why not go with an original 1873 winchester?They're not that much more for a shooter than a repo about $1000,THEN YOU'LL HAVE THE REAL DEAL

Why not go with an original 1873 winchester?They're not that much more for a shooter than a repo about $1000,THEN YOU'LL HAVE THE REAL DEAL

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Have you priced one recently? I just checked Dixie Gunworks, the going price for a standard Uberti with 24" barrel and without pistol grip in 4-40 or 45 Colt is $1175. If you can find an original, in good shape for about that much money, my hat is off to you. Most of the ones that I see in that price range are really beat up and need work. I check out vintage Winchesters all the time, most of the shooter grade ones I see start around $2000 - $2500. I'm going to a big gun show tomorrow and I'll note down some prices.

I just checked Kittery Trading Post, the biggest gun room in New England. They have an 1892 in 38-40 for $1495, and another one in 32-20 for $895. That's a really good price, but I'll bet it's a beater. Plus 32-20 will make for a really heavy gun.

Last year I bought an original Winchester Model 1873 chambered for 38-40 and made in 1887. It was in good shape, a good shooter, not particularly collectable. I had to pay considerably more than $1175 for it, but less than $2000, that's why I grabbed it. Also, do you really want to take an antique to a match? Serious competitors slam their rifles down onto the props pretty hard when they are going for their pistols. Don't get me wrong, I do shoot antiques at matches fairly often, but I baby them when I do.

What about using a Remington Revolving Carbine?

hartcreek said:

What about using a Remington Revolving Carbine?

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I'll repeat what I said in post #3; If you don't care where you rank, you can use anything.

Most cowboy action stages use 10 shots in the rifle. Sometimes 8 or 9, but mostly 10, and occasionally there may be one or two more rounds loaded into the rifle on the clock. So anyone using a Remington Revolving rifle will be giving away 25 seconds or more (can only load 5 to start with) on each stage of the match. Yeah you get style points, hope they are enough to compensate for your ranking at the very bottom of the list.

Cowboy action shooting is competition. Gentle friendly competition, but still competition.

Here is a link to a promotional video produced by a club in Florida. See how many revolving rifles are being used, versus 1873s.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXPB8I1FuF8


By the way, in case you couldn't guess from the video, Dang It Dan and Sante Fe River Stan are top ranked nationally, so you are looking at some of the best shooters around in this video.

I'd hate to know I had to compete with an original 1873 that only cost $1000. Can you even get one with visible rifling for that much???

I got mine, with darn good rifling, for $300. That was 30 years ago with a broken main spring and firing pin, got the parts back then for less than $20 from Dixie Gun Works.
Yes, I use it for SASS shooting and once in a while target shoot with full .44-40 loads.

Howdy Again

You may see a lot of Henry Big Boys at shows, but you will not see very many at a CAS match. There are a bunch of reasons. I wouldn't touch one myself.

What about using a Remington Revolving Carbine?

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No, a Remington Revolving Carbine is not a SASS legal rifle. From the shooter's handbook:

RIFLE REQUIREMENTS

Rifles or carbines used in the main and team matches must be original or replicas of lever or slide action rifles manufactured during the period from approximately 1860 until 1899, incorporating a tubular magazine and exposed hammer. Rifles with box magazines may not be used. Certain shooting categories require a specific type of rifle and ammunition to be used. Please see the shooting categories for further information

RIFLE CALIBERS

Must be centerfire of at least .32 caliber and not larger than .45 caliber.

Must be in a caliber commonly available in revolvers. Examples include, bu
t are not limited to, .32-20, .32 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, .38-40.44-40, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, and .45 Colt. The only allowed exceptions are the .25-20 and .56-50. No rifle calibers such as .30-30 or .38-55 are allowed.

Buckaroo/Buckarette

Category competitors choosing to utilize .22 caliber firearms must use
standard velocity .22 caliber rimfire ammunition only.

************

Just got back from the show at the Big E, the biggest gunshow in Mass. Saw several original 1873 Winchesters. Wide variation in price and quality. Saw a couple for $2500 that were beaters. No I did not ask to take the wire tie off so I could open the action and peer down the bores. But you might be surprised. I have no problem buying an old revolver or rifle that has a pitted bore, as long as the rifling is still strong. I have bunches of old guns from the Black Powder era that have old pitted bores, but the rifling is still strong and they are good shooters.

There was one dealer who had very nice stuff and his prices were very reasonable. He had bunches of original 1892s and 1894s. He had two 1873s that were in very nice shape. One was a 38-40, the other was a 32-20. The 32-20 was made in 1887, I forgot to write down what year the 38-40 was made. He was asking $1695 for each, a very reasonable price based on what I have seen. I suspect he could have been talked down a little bit. In fact, I was tempted to bargain with him over the 38-40, but I already have one and didn't want to spend that much today. If I had that one, I would not hesitate to bring it to a match and shoot it with Black Powder loads. I would not shoot the bezeezus out of it, I would shoot it relatively slowly and deliberately and I would not slam it down on the loading tables or props.

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I forgot to mention earlier that refinished originals are a very good option if you want an original. Refinishing old guns knocks the collector's value way down and you can get a nice looking refinished original for much less than usual. The first rifle I used in CAS was a very nice original Winchester Model 1892 that had been made in 1894. It had been refinished, so it was very affordable. I used this rifle for my first two years in CAS.




This 1916 era 1892 Saddle Ring Carbine was very affordable because it had been refinished. I found it a few years ago. I think I paid less than $500 for it. I ran right up to the counter and bought it before they changed the price.



Of course if you are buying refinished guns, you better know one when you see one. Some dealers will be right up front and tell you it has been refinished. Those are the guys you want to do business with. Others may try to fool you into thinking it is the original finish. Walk away from those guys.

I have a question. I'm not in CASS, but if the Henry Big Boy is not a reproduction of any historical rifle, how is it allowed in the first place.

I mean it looks a bit like a Marlin with a fake plated brass receiver and no loading gate. I picked one up at a gun show once. It felt heavy and just looked garish to me.

I had to go wash my hands before I attempted to even touch a real lever gun.

Cheers

P.S. Henry firearms is now reproducing the 1860 Henry, but I heard the price is going to be about $2,500. At double the price of one from Uberti, I doubt they are going to fly off the shelves.

forward observer said:

I have a question. I'm not in CASS, but if the Henry Big Boy is not a reproduction of any historical rifle, how is it allowed in the first place.

I mean it looks a bit like a Marlin with a fake plated brass receiver and no loading gate. I picked one up at a gun show once. It felt heavy and just looked garish to me.

I had to go wash my hands before I attempted to even touch a real lever gun.

Cheers

P.S. Henry firearms is now reproducing the 1860 Henry, but I heard the price is going to be about $2,500. At double the price of one from Uberti, I doubt they are going to fly off the shelves.

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Others may chime in with more detail, but as I recall...

The Henry Big Boy was controversial because the Henry Rifle Company advertised in the SASS Cowboy Chronicle, the monthly membership newspaper, and contributed money to SASS matches as a sponsor, and then they advertised the Big Boy as a rifle for cowboy action shooting before it was approved by the rules committee, so some SASS members bought the rifle and started using it. The SASS administrators were then caught in a bind, having to decide between some degree of historical accuracy versus pissing off a sponsor and members who bought the gun. They approved the gun.

At least that is the story that I heard...I was not involved and don't own one. It's hearsay, take it for what its worth.

J-Bar said:

Others may chime in with more detail, but as I recall...

The Henry Big Boy was controversial because the Henry Rifle Company advertised in the SASS Cowboy Chronicle, the monthly membership newspaper, and contributed money to SASS matches as a sponsor, and then they advertised the Big Boy as a rifle for cowboy action shooting before it was approved by the rules committee, so some SASS members bought the rifle and started using it. The SASS administrators were then caught in a bind, having to decide between some degree of historical accuracy versus pissing off a sponsor and members who bought the gun. They approved the gun.

At least that is the story that I heard...I was not involved and don't own one. It's hearsay, take it for what its worth.

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Thanks, I did a Google search on the Henry big boy and came up with some SASS forum posts that said essentially the same thing you just said.

Unfortunately that sort of thing happens all too often when business gets involved with a new sport and of course money talks.

Personally, I think Henry Firearms sort of misrepresents themselves anyway.
They just assumed the Henry name to capitalize on it's historical significance.

If you go to their website they have a page of historical B.S. that makes it sound like their company was formed by Benjamin Tyler Henry. They never had any connection with Henry in the least nor New Haven Arms where Henry filed for his patent as an employee of Oliver Winchester.

As mentioned, I see they are now listing an 1860 Henry reproduction made in the US on their site. However at $2,300 MSRP, I don't see how it can compete with the Uberti version unless it gets discounted a whole lot at retail.

Cheers

OK, since we have decided to go down the thorny path of the relationship between the Henry Big Boy and SASS, Here is what happened.

Yes, Henry was advertising the Big Boy as being SASS Legal before it had actually been approved. These things are decided by the Territorial Governors at their annual meeting. The Territorial Governors are elected representatives of the local SASS clubs and they are charged with voting as their constituents tell them every year on tons and tons of issues. SASS is a for profit corporation, and the actual owners - The Wild Bunch - sometimes steps in and overrides how the TGs vote.

If you look back a few posts you will see that I posted the qualifications of what makes a SASS Legal Main Match rifle. The Big Boy fell short because it is not a faithful reproduction of anything that existed in the Old West. It is 'kinda like' a historical rifle, it is worked by a lever, has a tubular magazine, and an external hammer. There were those who thought that because the BB had a brass plated frame it looked enough like the Model 1866 to be considered a replica. But those of us who are sticklers for such things felt that the BB really did not closely resemble the '66 or any other historical design, and if you will allow me to post a completely personal, highly opinionated opinion, I think the BB is ugly as a fence post. Really, compare it side by side to a '66, '73', 92, or a Marlin.

Muddying the water was the fact that Ruger Blackhawks have been SASS legal since the earliest days of SASS. It could be argued that Blackhawks, and their descendents the Vaqueros, should also not be SASS Legal because they are not accurate reproductions of anything else either. However Rugers have always been allowed because when SASS started in the 1980s there were not as many choices for pistols as there are today. Either you shot real Colts, or Rugers. Uberti was making repros, as were a couple of other companies, but they were not as readily available as they are today.

Then there was the whole issue of the Henry Repeating Arms Company's flagrantly misleading advertising, claiming it had historical connection to the original 1860 Henry, which is completely false. They even go so far as to post photos of the old New Haven Arms Company (predecessor to Winchester Repeating Arms) on their web site, allowing the unsuspecting reader to make the incorrect connection between the historical company and the present day one.

Finally, the fact that Henry is an American company, vs the Italian imports, is always dragged into the argument.

So with all this as background, the TGs were charged a number of years ago with whether or not to bestow SASS Legal status on the Big Boy. I basically told my TG I was agin' mostly because it is not an accurate replica of anything, and HRC's deceptive advertising really bugs me. Not that I held sway on anything, but the first time around the vote went against the Big Boy and it was not granted SASS Legal status.

Then a year later the whole thing came up again. Personally, I was tired of the whole business and told my TG yeah, go ahead an vote for it. If folks want to shoot it that much, who are we to tell them no. Again, I don't hold sway over anything, but this time the Big Boy did win approval.

The proof is in the pudding. You will see very few of them at a SASS match. As I said earlier, the most common rifle is a 20" 1873 short rifle in 357 Mag. There are a few Big Boy shooters on the SASS Wire who defend their choice of rifle vehemently, but you never see them in the winner's circle. The tales of failure and jams at matches are plentiful. I have personally examined them, and have worked the action, and have not had any trouble with them, but plenty of shooters have.

Caveat Emptor.

One thing you might want to know about SASS. SASS is NOT based on historical accuracy. It is based on the old western movies. You do not have to have period correct underwear to shoot in SASS. Even if you did, I don't think anyone would live long if they tried to check my underwear.

Now, that being said, historical accuracy is desirable and encouraged. IMHO, the closer I get the more I enjoy the game. Except for the underwear. And you don't have to portray a cowboy. I've seen barkeeps, storekeeps, gamblers, train conductors, military, and various other costuming, and they are all legal and encouraged.

As to the Henry Big Boy. It is a quality gun, it is accurate, but based on comments on the SASS Wire, it is NOT FAST. It is also heavy.

I shoot a '92 carbine and a Uberti Henry, both in .44-40. The '92 is my favorite rifle. I can't think of any other firearm I have ever handled that fits me like the '92. Don't get me wrong, I love my '60, but it is not nearly as handy as the '92. If you happened to decide on a '92, then look up Nate Kiowa Jones and order his CD on slicking up the '92. I did it on mine, world of difference. And I'm not a gunsmith. If I can follow his instructions, then anyone can.

Best advice: go to some matches. Introduce yourself. Depending on the club, you may not have time to introduce yourself, as most clubs will rush to you. Most members will gladly take the time to show you their guns, and let you handle them.

And before you take any of my advice seriously, be sure to look at my signature line. I love the game, but I suck at it!

This question comes up quite often. The best answer, in my opinion, is "attend a local match and see what people are using". Talk to the shooters who USE these guns in competition, month after month.

The vast majority of the matches are put on my clubs affiliated with the Single Action Shooting Society (SASS). The term "cowboy action shooting" (CAS) is a SASS trademark. There is no "CASS". I have been shooting cowboy action in a SASS affiliated club for just over four years. I am familiar with SASS rules so that is my perspective.

Just to reiterate, the revolving carbines are not legal in SASS matches. The same with the "Mares Laig" or "Ranch Hand" lever action pistols. Are they fun to shoot? Maybe. Just understand that if you buy one and show up at a match wanting to shoot it, you will probably be disappointed.

There are reasons why the Uberti '73s and '66s are so prevalent in this sport. The Marlin 1894s are also good rifles, but the price of used Marlin Cowboy rifles has gone WAY up due to concerns about the quality of the rifles made after Remington's ownership.

I attended a local match yesterday. There were two shooters on my posse using Brazilian reproductions of the Winchester 1892 rifle (these are the most affordable pistol caliber lever rifles). Both of them had problems with their rifles.

We have very few people in the sport using Henry Big Boy rifles. I'm sure they are fine for hunting or range work. They are not very good as competition rifles. If the were you would see more of them. I would rather brown bag my lunch for a couple of months and buy something that works well.

I made my comment about the revolving rifle after seeing a shooter use one at a club level practice match. Local clubs will sometimes waive a rule. I appreciate DJ pointing out that they would not be allowed in a SASS sanctioned match. I also urge you to go to a match or two before buying anything. That is the best advice in this whole thread. You don't know what kind of cowboy you want to be yet!

FYI, the Henry "Big Boy" is not a legal NCOWS rifle.

I use a Uberti 1873 octagonal bbl replica, ca. 2004. Still works.

FH

FWIW, the Mare's Leg is a SASS legal pistol, which of course has nothing to do with your OP.