Arguing About The Rules

And at that same link, Mr Schaefer quotes John Farnam in part as follows:

Quote:
...The correct philosophical approach to serious firearms training is the "the condition doesn't matter" method. This was first articulated by Uncle Jeff in his four rules, but all four can all be rolled together in the universal admonition "DON'T DO STUPID THINGS WITH GUNS!" The "hot range" concept logically flows from this philosophical conclusion. Now, we handle all guns correctly, all the time. We don't have to "pretend" they're loaded. They ARE loaded, continuously, and all students need to become accustomed to it....
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Approx 10-12 years ago I attended a John Farnam defensive hand gun class. His "hot range" methods actually took much of the stress out of the equation for me. There was simply no question, the guns were loaded and chambered. Mags were removed and topped off with the weapon in the holster.

Another "rule" he drilled into us was, "Don't be with stupid people in stupid places doing stupid things. "

rust collector said:

We know what Cooper was trying to communicate, but when we tell young people something that is clearly not so, our attempt to establish credibility is doomed.

We can speak among ourselves in our own special argot, but when we are trying to get the message across to twelve-year-olds we say, we demonstrate, we ask questions and we have them demonstrate.

If words alone were ever sufficient, that day is long past.

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I beg to differ, at least in part.

If children are not able to conceptualize such a safety concept, then perhaps they shouldn't be handling firearms at all...at least until they show themselves capable of learning.

They learn such concepts when they are TAUGHT them. It's part of being able to understand the underlying MEANING of the words and concepts they are being taught. If all they are ultimately capable of is rote memorization and regurgitation of a specific phrase without being able to demonstrate the underlying, real-world meaning (and consequences), then we, as adults, have failed them.

Children ARE capable of understanding such concepts, else entire generations of us would never have survived all those Bugs Bunny and Road Runner cartoons while growing up.

My mother-in-law (who doesn't have a mean bone in her body) and I used to have it out on various things I expected of our children (her grandbabies). Namely that they shouldn't be told to do certain things or expected to do certain things because they don't know how. Things like pick up their own toys, put their dirty laundry in the laundry hamper, etc. I or my wife should do it all for them. Wrong answer. They learn to do these things because we show them, explain what and why, and then we make them do these things themselves...and in the process, they eventually come to understand why they need to be done WITHOUT having to be told in exquisite and exacting detail.

We have three teens, 13 to 16. They understand what these rules mean, including the first rule, even if they have personally verified the gun in their hands as actually empty. In fact, if anybody tried to argue symantics with a particular daughter that a gun was REALLY not loaded, she'd straight up tell them to their face "that's not the point".

Because she gets it.


If any person, child or adult, is hung up on arguing the symantics of this, then they don't get the point. And around us, that means they don't get to handle or shoot any guns.

Rules like these shouldn't be detailed...they're summaries, key words and phrases which should trigger the full understanding they should have been taught. Put the full concept down in exacting detail and all you'll get by human nature is a whole lot of glazing over a bunch of words without actually reading them.

While I won't cover somebody even after checking a gun out in a gun shop I've checked out bores several times in a lgs on used guns of course after clearing the weapon and keeping the action locked open. So at that point I wasn't treating it as loaded.

did you read my post? do you understand that people do not follow rules unless they want to? do you understand that rules are dictated and enforced, not taught and learned?

i guess you could say that i disagree with your statements.

murf

I read them.

Frank Ettin hit the heart of the matter with this -

Let's see what Jeff Cooper had to say.

Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, Vol. 6 (1998), No. 2, pg. 8.

Quote:
ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
The only exception to this occurs when one has a weapon in his hands and he has personally unloaded it for checking. As soon as he puts it down, Rule 1 applies again.

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Cooper had a similar amplifying statement following each of the Rules, not just Rule 1.

Our local range just held an NRA Action Pistol training shoot, and the Four Rules were part of the safety training. The instructor explained them as absolutes, and there weren't any arguments from the class. He did include the exception to Rule 1 verbally, but it wasn't printed on the handout.

For me, at least, Cooper's amplifying statements make all the difference. Without them, the reader/student is left on their own and may not come up with the same rationale Cooper did.

Proper gun stores hand guns across the counter with the action open, so that the customer can verify the exception to Rule 1. And, the salesman observes Rule 1, 2 and 3 while he is racking the slide. Further, the salesman suggests the customer sight on a corner behind the counter rather than point the muzzle around the store at folks who were not part of the inspection which permitted the exception to Rule 1.

Some gun stores operate on the assumptions that 1) the guns are checked at the start of every day, and 2) customers are watched to make sure they didn't bring ammo with them. Then they just handle the guns with impunity and permit the customers to do likewise. This is undoubtedly easier than the above procedure, but IMO it isn't as safe.

I believe the Four Rules were intended to provide a safety mindset for those who carry loaded guns. For folks who "are not on that page", they may believe the older NRA target range-based rules are the only thing that makes any sense. (...Don't load a gun until you are ready to shoot, etc.)

This then, is the fundamental difference. Old school - all guns are stored unloaded because the safety rules say they are. Modern - all guns are always loaded because the safety rules say they are.

The underlying safety behind Rule 1 is that, even if you know the gun is unloaded, you follow the applicable Rules as appropriate, until you have verified that it is unloaded with a inspection/chamber check. Then Rule 1 no longer applies, until you set it down.

I have had discussions lasting several minutes with folks who cannot handle the exception, who believe that it somehow dillutes the strength of Rule 1 to admit than an exception exists.

I ask them how they clean their guns, (cleaning rod use for some guns involves hands in front of muzzle...), and this just leads to further argument.

To conclude, I believe if you don't understand the exception, you don't truly understand Rule 1 and are likely to fumble when you run into "administrative tasks" which are not directly related to carrying and shooting.

berettaprofessor said:

Hope you're not shooting with this friend anymore, because he's not a friend if he cares more about his own misconceptions than your life.

Search and read about the psych concept "Unskilled and unaware"

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You are probably right. I guess it will be foosball or darts next time.

Gun shows around here have to have the chamber visibly secured with a ziptie through it to be displayed.

Edit - (Missed the addition of that quote mentioning gun shows)

jobu07 said:

There's been a whole mess of people over the course of history shot with unloaded guns.

It pays dividends to treat weapons with the respect due.

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Bingo. Though I have to teach it as "TAB-K", the way the Wisc. DNR does, (I am a 4-H Shooting Sports leader) instead of Cooper's Four Rules, as I had them drilled into my head as a kid, That is still Rule No. 1.
TAB-K:

Treat every firearm as if it's loaded. (this is where I expand on that with jamesjames's bullet points)
Always point the muzzle in a safe direction.
Be sure of your target and beyond
Kepp your finger off the trigger until ready to fire.

Or as I state it sometimes, Keep your booger hook off the bang switch until ready to fire. Kids tend to remember it better that way. (And I got it from this forum many years ago....)

Always believe the gun is loaded leads right into Never dry fire a weapon be it yours or more importantly another persons.
I can't count the number of times I have seen people pick up a gun and begin snapping away without checking the weapon first.
Kids do it and so do adults.

First thing, it is a rude practice that demonstrates a complete lack of respect for someone elses property and secondly, imagine the shock, horror, and surprise when the gun goes BOOM.

Safety First aside, these are both simple rules of etiquette and manners that should be a part of everyone's subconscious.

"But I didn't know it was loaded."

Sad words, and Cooper's 1st rule, if followed, wold negate the need for these words to ever come out of one's mouth.

The only exception to this occurs when one has a weapon in his hands and he has personally unloaded it for checking. As soon as he puts it down, Rule 1 applies again.

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When that is understood all debate and confusion should cease.

Rule #1 as I use it....

Consider all guns to be loaded, until proven otherwise.

Corollary #1 to rule #1....

In order to prove that any gun is unloaded, you have to understand how it's particular mechanism works.

When I clean a gun or do hobby gunsmithing and I have proven to myself that the gun I'm working on is unloaded, I can then brake other rules, like holding the muzzle up to my eye and sighting the bore.

Rule #1 as I use it....

Consider all guns to be loaded, until proven otherwise.

Corollary #1 to rule #1....

In order to prove that any gun is unloaded, you have to understand how it's particular mechanism works.

When I clean a gun or do hobby gunsmithing and I have proven to myself that the gun I'm working on is unloaded, I can then brake other rules, like holding the muzzle up to my eye and sighting the bore.

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We have a winner, common sense rules supreme.

Personally I think it's a silly rule because, as the OP almost got to, it's false.

But I don't normally bother to comment on it, because people on both sides get all bent out of shape and I don't care that much.

I understand the POINT of the rule, and it makes sense, but the rule itself is silly because it's either false, or impossible....depending on which version of it your referencing.

...but the rule itself is silly because it's either false, or impossible....

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I know this snippet was taken out of context, but bear with me -

Think of Rule 1 as part of a mindset, not a set of scientific or legal statements.

The presumption of Rule 1 is that all guns are always loaded, unless you prove it otherwise. Each and every time you pick one up.

And until you prove it is unloaded by a careful inspection, all the other Rules apply, too.

However, as long as your actions reflect the Four Rules, nobody will care about semantics...

I like and use Cooper's 4 rules every time I give a safety brief... which is every time I take a guest to the club.

Short and pithy is exactly why I like them. I start by saying "hold up your hand and tell me how many fingers you had" then I joke that a thumb is not a finger and do the quick 1-2-3-4

People can remember them and see how redundant layers of protection are good.

Arguing about the rules.

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......and now we're arguing about arguing about the rules.:banghead:

buck460XVR said:

......and now we're arguing about arguing about the rules.:banghead:

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First time to THR there buck?

This could go on for days. Some people don't like to be told how to handle or do anything. They will go out of their way to demonstrate that they are not doing what they know to be the correct way to handle guns in a given situation.

The most common safety related brain fart that I see is people not keeping the muzzle pointed down range at all times. They get offended and embarrassed when a range officer tells them not to do it again. The leave the range, go home, get on the internet, and write a bad review of the range.

Rules are about developing good habits, usually following the rules will eliminate
the failure of good habits.

............................. Jack

Walkalong said:

"All guns are always loaded"

Obviously they are not, but if we treat them as such, we should never shoot anything of value.

Many years ago I had a negligent discharge while alone in my first home with a gun I knew (Absolutely no doubt knew!) was unloaded. Fortunately, as I always do, I pointed the gun I knew was unloaded in a safe direction and pulled the trigger. BOOM! That habit saved damage to something, or perhaps worse. Scared the crap out of me and reinforced both "guns are always loaded", and "always point it in a safe direction". I do that to this day, unload, point it in a safe direction if I need to pull the trigger, pull it, and put it away.

However y'all interpret the four rules, do be careful out there.

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Please explain your ND in detail. I don't want it to happen to me. You seem capable of checking a gun to see if it is loaded.