1911 slide front searations, eye wash or purpose?

The competitive point of the front serrations is a nice quick'neasy slide operation while maintining a firing grip with the strong hand. I've seen it done a lot, though I don't use it. It's a user preference to go weak hand under the dust cover, grab the slide, and chamber OR clear OR show clear OR press-check during various types of administrative gunhandling.

It's a competitive games thing that some also like to use on their carry guns. Just a preference that some used to pay for and the marketing gurus said would help sell the newer models better to the high-volume users.

I must admit that the movements come more naturally and are easier to watch than the slingshot method, but the security of the little old weakhand thumb and two fingers at that angle _is_ less than the slingshot grip. Maybe it's all that nailgun loading that makes it seem natural to me...

Front slide serrations are useful for some malfunction clearance drills. Stove pipes for example. Keep your firing grip, grasp the front serrations over the top of the gun, and as you retract the slide the top your your hand will help dislodge the stovepiped case. What I see most people do with stove piped rounds is grasp the slide by the rear serrations, pull it back, turn it sideways and jiggle the gun.

Eyes Front!

Lordy...Talk about a topic that's been beat to death. Next to FLGRs and
MIM parts, I'd say that this one has started more fires than Mrs. O'Leary's
Cow. Front cocking serrations...Grasping Grooves...whatever you call'em...have been cussed and discussed since they showed up.

I can take'em or leave'em on a game gun or range beater, but I don't
want'em on a carry gun. Murphy's law states that anything that can go
wrong WILL go wrong...and a real-world UTYAIA thing is just too ripe
a target for me to tempt ol' Murphy with a built-in presentation-screwup
device. To wit: They CAN and DO create friction in a fast presentation, and in such an UTYAIA situation...you're probably not gonna have a lotta
time to play with. That carry gun is kinda like an ambulance. You probably
won't need it...but if you do, you'll need it bad and you'll need it like right NOW!

Your life/death thing will likely happen at powder-burning distance, or
maybe two feet further out, and there's at least a 50/50 chance that you'll
be back-pedaling and fending off a blade or a Louisville Slugger with your
weak hand while your strong hand reaches for the gun. In such a situation, those big, blocky target sights won't help a bit, and they may even be a liability as your trembling hand tries to clear the leather.

If you do happen to get the gun to eye level and you can find the sights in the narrow pencil of vision that accompanies the UTYAIA thing...you may
be shot while you're trying to align them at the exact center of mass and
beginning your "Compressed Surprise Break".

If your pistol is sprung so that it requires a strong, stiff grip in order to
function, and you're fending off the attack with one hand and shooting with
the other with your wrist canted at an awkward angle...that possibly critical second shot may not happen. How ya gonna do a malfunction drill when your support hand is keepin' the blade away from your throat? Hmmmm?

If you're unable to effect press-check with your weak hand on the front of a
clean slide, I suggest a lighter recoil spring or hand-strengthening exercises.

If anybody thinks for one second that competition relates even closely to a real fight...you're kidding yourselves. The two ain't even in the same galaxy.

Cheers all!

Tuner

*Shrug*

They have no use for me. They certainly may have a use for others.

Your life/death thing will likely happen at powder-burning distance, or maybe two feet further out, and there's at least a 50/50 chance that you'll be back-pedaling and fending off a blade or a Louisville Slugger with your weak hand while your strong hand reaches for the gun.

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No kidding! I'll have to dig out the source but, most shootings happen with in 25 feet and average about 7 feet or closer.

Preach on brother Tuner.

Ugly and useless. I can press check without them, and do so. I wouldn't even want my hands that close to the muzzle while doing a press check. I hate them.

If you "need" them I suggest you follow Tuner's advice:

If you're unable to effect press-check with your weak hand on the front of a clean slide, I suggest a lighter recoil spring or hand-strengthening exercises.

Click to expand...

HATE THEM!!!!
utterly and completely...
only thing they're good for is pistolwhipping perps into confessions...
just like a cheese grater otherwise ...
have only 1 (one) pistol that came with them and it never gets used anymore...
chews hell out of any non-plastic holster and looks fugly...
pi encl is what 1911 should look like...

They're the spawn of Satan. Having said that, they are helpful in a competition gun and in some cases even necessary. My gripe with manufacturers and front serrations is that these eyesores almost always show up on guns that are marketed towards the self defense segment. Anything beyond the basic no frills pistol seems to get uglyfied.

"If anybody thinks for one second that competition relates even closely to a real fight...you're kidding yourselves. The two ain't even in the same galaxy. "

Tuner my friend, not to get too far into the thread drift, but if I knew I had to get into a gunfight with somebody, and I could choose between the average gunowner, or a serious competitor, I would choose to fight the average guy every time. If I had to choose between that serious competitor and the average police officer, I would take the cop every time. All of the best tactical and law enforcement shooters I know are also competitors so that is a wash.

Don't ever underestimate a "gamer". Some of us do have a fighting mindset, and we also happen to shoot a whole lot better than your average defensive handgun user, in pretty much any sort of training or practical test you want to put us through. And when the chips are down, my money is going to be on the guy who has fired hundreds of thousands of rounds under time, reloads by the 5 gallon bucket, and has scar tissue on his trigger finger from dry firing.

Competition

No argument there, Correia...Just tryin' to note the difference and call attention to the fact that regular, or even fanatical competition doesn't prepare us for the real deal any more than racin' a go-kart on a quarter-miledirt track over in Mudville can prepare a driver for the Daytona 500.

FWIW, I saw more than one High Expert rifle marksman fall apart when rounds were also incoming. There's a world of difference. Don't doubt it.

To quote a few lines from one of my favorite movies:

"I don't get it, Mr. Books. My group almost matched yours!"

"That tree ain't shootin' back, boy. It's not always being fast or even accurate that counts. It's being willing. Most men, regardless of need or purpose, aren't willing. They'll hesitate...They'll draw a breath, or blink an eye before they can pull the trigger. I won't."

Cheers!

Tuner

tangent input...

...Mike Dalton, Champion Shooter, Police Officer, operator of ISI shooting school in California has an excellent article in September/October 2000 issue of American Handgunner.

Title is "Competition Shooting and Self-Defense"

Required reading for a class I'm taking in a few weeks...Mr. Dalton acknowledges the differences between real gunfights and competition shooting, but aggressively rebuffs the notion that Competition Shooting does not provide value when faced with a real life encounter.

Unfortunately, I'm not aware that the article has been posted on the web as part of the public domain...American Handgunner offers reprints for a fee.

I will post a single quote from the article by Mr. Dalton:
"To suggest that one is better off not competing because it will ruin their self-defense skills is ridiculous. If you can't shoot fast and accurately under pressure, you are unlikely to do well in a real life gunfight. Sometimes individuals who failed to achieve their desired goals chose to blame the contest rather than their ability. Next time you hear or read something from one of these critics, consider what the individual has accomplished in shooting competition. The answer will likely be little or nothing".

To be sure, there are some brave men and women who have performed quite well without ever hearing a timer go off in their ear. Conversely, Master shooters cannot claim to be combat proven based on "gaming" trophies.

Cooper, Chapman, and others evolved combat shooting techniques (from unsighted crouch fire) in part by using the vehicle of competition.

To paraphrase Brian Enos...if I'm drowning, I have no qualms with an Olympic swimmer coming to my rescue .

I'll never cease to be amazed at the level of emotion attached to slide serrations...slide serrations...people in California can't by an AK or an AR-15 or even an SKS and we're arguing about slide serrations...and the merits of using gaming to improve one's skills...proof that it's a free country, but objective evidence that those who should be most emotional about the continuation of that freedom are sometimes easily distracted .

Stay safe, and serration equipped or serration free as your 2nd Amendment rights describe,

CZ52' (a.k.a. TBN)

I dig 'em, an aid, but not a necessity. Helps in press checking especially when moving and grooving when hands are sweaty and/or bloody.

Cannot see how they would slow presentation. I guess depends on stroke. Maybe for a bowler???

Have not worn out any holsters in all my years of training. But maybe that's because the gear I use?

I can see the complaint about tearing up holsters. I have a Springfield that you could shave with. Those things are sharp. The serrations on my Kimber a much more rounded.

Tuner, no argument. It is still all going to come down to how much fire is in the fighter's belly.

Man, people put ketchup on their eggs and no one says sh**, but they spend hours bicthing about FCS on someone else's gun.

Go figure.

Scott
"FCS, with a side order of FLGR, to go, please."

re:

Mr. Dalton acknowledges the differences between real gunfights and competition shooting, but aggressively rebuffs the notion that Competition Shooting does not provide value when faced with a real life encounter.

No argument there, either. Competetive shooting absolutely helps to hone our skills and gives us an edge over the average Joe...especially in the
area of learning to keep a cool head under pressure...but the adrenalin
rush compares rather like a tropical storm to a hurricane...
___________________________

But...back on topic.



El Tejon said:

Cannot see how they would slow presentation. I guess depends on stroke. Maybe for a bowler???

The answer to that is...friction. it won't make a lot of difference...IF...we can execute a picture-perfect draw like we do on the range...and yes, repetition/practice makes perfect. BUT...as noted earlier, when you're backing up and fighting off a headlong, armed assault, can you guarantee
that you can execute that sort of presentation on demand...every time?
How about if you find yourself on your back with part of your weight bearing on the holster? That added friction can mean the difference in getting the weapon into play just in time...or too late to matter.

We often make the mistake of assuming that we will have ample time to
go for the pistol on our belt...that we'll see the attack coming in time to
execute the perfect draw and obtain the perfect, two-handed grip, whatever the style...but chances are very high that we won't. In these
mad moments, things rarely go as we think they will. Fractions of seconds
are often decisive. If I have to fight for my life, I don't want to take even
a small risk of being a tenth of a second too late. I want a clean slide
and a smooth finish on a carry gun. (Melted is good.) I won't be in a big hurry to do a pinch-check, but I just MIGHT be in a helluva big rush to clear the leather at some point.

Food for thought. Bottom line is that we lays down our bets and we takes our chances.

Luck!

Tuner

The gamer vs. tactical wannabe argument is getting old too. In my view, those folks who simply suck at shooting fast and accurately in a controlled situation are just trying to convince themselves that there is no correlation between the dreaded square range and the street.

Now I never said that Competition Shooters would be incompetent at self defense. What I took exception to was that it was being implied that because someone had little or no experience in competition that they wouldn't be able to cut it in the real world. Or that we are unable to "get it."

Training is a good thing. Practice is essential. But there is, tp paraphrase Tuner, more than a World of difference between Games and the Street.
All anyone can do is try to be prepared as best they can for whatever may cross their path.
It's quite easy to find trouble when you're looking for it. But it seems trouble is more apt to find you when you least expect it.
I don't believe there has ever been a single case of a mugger attacking a person who was standing still, facing them, at the low ready.

There is NOTHING in this world as unsettleing as putting a major caliber round or two center mass and then have that person just stand there like nothing happened. There is no course of fire or simulation in the world that will honestly prepare you for that.

Fast and Accurate

The gamer vs. tactical wannabe argument is getting old too. In my view, those folks who simply suck at shooting fast and accurately in a controlled situation are just trying to convince themselves that there is no correlation between the dreaded square range and the street.
__________________________

Well..I shoot pretty well in a controlled situation...and I normally shoot
between 50 and 75k a year, since I've gotten old and slowed down a bit...
but I can promise you that the "Square Range" is a very different arena
than fighting for your life when there are no rules, no signals, no timers, and damn few second chances. And yes...in case you're wondering...I have been there and done that.

Luck!

Tuner

I should have said "most" instead of being all inclusive.

So, your vast range experience and gunhandling skills were worthless on the street? I have found the opposite to be true. Oh, I had a career once in law enforcement and I am also an IPSC gamer, just in case you are wondering.

BTW, I shoot a million rounds a year and my dad is double tough. So is my mommy.

Well said 'Tuner!

Now I never said that Competition Shooters would be incompetent at self defense. What I took exception to was that it was being implied that because someone had little or no experience in competition that they wouldn't be able to cut it in the real world. Or that we are unable to "get it."

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My understanding is that the poster did not intend for you to draw that broad conclusion. My read was the comment was directed to the value proposition of the serration, not an indictment in general of those who have not, or do not currently game.

Training is a good thing. Practice is essential. But there is, tp paraphrase Tuner, more than a World of difference between Games and the Street.
All anyone can do is try to be prepared as best they can for whatever may cross their path.

Click to expand...

Mr. Dalton's article indicates a correllation of value between gaming and real life readiness. He does not attempt to broadly claim that competitor = combat proven, but he vigorously disagrees with the notion that gaming is harmful, or that skills acquired in gaming aren't transferable to self-defense.

It's quite easy to find trouble when you're looking for it. But it seems trouble is more apt to find you when you least expect it.
I don't believe there has ever been a single case of a mugger attacking a person who was standing still, facing them, at the low ready.

Click to expand...

I think you'll find that depending on the game, and the course designer, a variety of scenarios are offered that give the gamer the opportunity to react to problems that more closely resemble real life threats than one you describe.

There is NOTHING in this world as unsettleing as putting a major caliber round or two center mass and then have that person just stand there like nothing happened. There is no course of fire or simulation in the world that will honestly prepare you for that.

Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more...but refusing to put your skills on the line within a gaming scenario (when good opportunities exist to many shooters in many locations) robs one of the benefit of developing their skills to expanded potential.

Will, determination, character, can't be replaced or earned on a scoresheet...a gamer with great skills cannot claim these attributes with a classification by a sanctioning body....however, a terrific human being with courage, bravery, and will without the commitment to maintain skills...there is risk there also.

Bottom line, I think the intent was to make a comment regarding the linkage between the potential utility of serrations to a gamer not to disparage the moral character, courage, or combat ability of a serration free THR member who doesn't happen to game.

Stay safe,

CZ52'

Skills

So, your vast range experience and gunhandling skills were worthless on the street?

But, of course! Why do ya think I shoot that much with these achin'
hands and wrists? It ain't because I enjoy the pain.
_____________________


BTW, I shoot a million rounds a year and my dad is double tough. So is my mommy.

And here all this time I was thinkin' that we were gonna have an intelligent,
open debate about the pros and cons of competition and practice, and the
usefulness of front grasping grooves on a carry gun. Didn't realize that
sarcasm and condecension would surface...but I digress.

Be of good cheer and mindful of your six! Hear?

Tuner

Look up through the weeds to the left, y'all.

See that thing up there?

That's the High Road.

Let's stop thumpin' chests and steer back towards it, huh?

Some of are not "Me Too Guys" This is a treatment I developed for certain 1911's that we do Online. Very sticky and no scabbard wear to spreak of.