Is part of Obama's EO on guns a catch 22?

JellyJar said:

It I understand it correctly, nowadays in order to get an FFL you need to have an actual store with a business license, regular hours and such; no more kitchen table FFLs. If so then it seems that now if you want to just sell an occasional firearm from you collection to an ordinary person Obama wants you to have to get an FFL! But if you can't get an FFL to use at home but you need one to sell other than to a regular FFL you can't sell other than to an already existing FFL!? Catch 22, right?

I suspect that that is just what he intends. Stop face to face transfers between ordinary people even if the sale is otherwise legal under Federal law.

What do you think?

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To get a FFL you need:

A business license - If you local laws require one
A storefront - If you local zoning laws require one
You do need to post business hours

You do not need an FFL for the occasional sell from your personal collection. The guidance given by the ATF literally says this almost verbatim.

USA Today has a good article on the Obama gun actions:

Here are three things that are in the package (according to the White House fact sheet):

• Hiring more people to run the FBI background check system, so the government can be "processing background checks 24 hours a day, 7 days a week."

• Requesting from Congress an additional $500 million to increase access to mental health care.

• Clarifying that people selling guns over the Internet can still be required to conduct background checks on buyers if they are "engaged in the business" of selling guns, not just a hobbyist.

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http://www.usatoday.com/story/onpolitics/2016/01/05/obama-guns-proposals-sales-nra-ryan/78282918/


The term "executive order" is a misnomer. In checking all executive orders since the 1930s i can't find an "executive order" pertaining to guns. Administrations have rather wide latitude in the enforcement, interpretation and modification of US law.

You do not need a store front unless your local zoning permits require it. I know more than 20 kitchen table guys. The feds have nothing to do with that. If you live in an area that is zoned multi use and your local zoning laws allow for it, as most do, then you certainly can run a "kitchen table" operation. You need a local or state business license and you need to pay local and/or state taxes and you need to comply with any state/local laws. The federal part of it is actually the easiest part of the who deal.
I could file for a FFL today to run a kitchen table business and I absolutely would be approved and as long as I paid my states B&O taxes and sales taxes I could do it as long as I wanted. Most kitchen table guys do it primarily for transfers. Where I have seen even store front guys getting into trouble is on not collecting and paying sales tax on transfers ( on full book value ) as required and Ive known one guy who got shut down by the state because of it.

I'm meeting my local kitchen table guy on Monday to pick up my new Ruger Precision Rifle and this weekend I'll meet my kitchen table SOT to pick up a new silencer.

Frank Ettin said:

JellyJar said:

Is part of Obama's EO on guns a catch 22?

....it seems that now if you want to just sell an occasional firearm from you collection to an ordinary person Obama wants you to have to get an FFL! But if you can't get an FFL to use at home but you need one to sell other than to a regular FFL you can't sell other than to an already existing FFL!? Catch 22, right?....

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Before anyone can even try to answer that intelligently we need to see exactly what Obama said in the Executive Order you're referring to. So exactly what does the Executive Order say on this point? And please link to the actual text of that Executive Order.

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Obama did not issue an Executive Order; nope, it didn't happen.

What Obama did was to take executive action by telling ATF to explain the law concerning gun dealer licensing.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) is making clear that it doesn’t matter where you conduct your business—from a store, at gun shows, or over the Internet: If you’re in the business of selling firearms, you must get a license and conduct background checks.

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ATF did as Obama said and issued Guidance explaining the requirements for gun dealer licensing under existing law.

The ATF Guidance is clear that the requirement to get a license hinges on whether a person is conducting a business.

As a general rule, you will need a license if you repetitively buy and sell firearms with the principal motive of making a profit. In contrast, if you only make occasional sales of firearms from your personal collection, you do not need to be licensed.

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If you want to prove you are conducting a business get a business license. If you have a business license the BATF WILL issue an FFL. If you do not have a business license the BATF will not issue an FFL. Its that easy. Your ability to get a business license is determined by your state local codes.

Once you become licensed, you are know as a business, likely in a searchable database. Then you are more likely to be burglarized or robbed. Thus the guns get into the hands of criminals!

That is the worst argument I have ever heard.

Keb said:

Once you become licensed, you are know as a business, likely in a searchable database. Then you are more likely to be burglarized or robbed. Thus the guns get into the hands of criminals!

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What??

JellyJar It I understand it correctly, nowadays in order to get an FFL you need to have an actual store with a business license, regular hours and such; no more kitchen table FFLs.

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100% false.
Makes the rest of your argument moot.

JSH1 To get a FFL you need:
A business license - If you local laws require one
A storefront - If you local zoning laws require one
You do need to post business hours

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To be clear.....
1.There is no ATF requirement to have a storefront.
2.Many states and localities do not require a business license, only a sales tax permit.
3.There is not and never has been a requirement to "post" a dealers business hours. Applicants for an FFL do have to list their business hours when they apply, but ATF doesn't give a hoot if you post those hours publicly or keep them a secret. The reason ATF requires an applicant to list business hours is that is when they will come to do your compliance inspections.

yugorpk If you want to prove you are conducting a business get a business license. If you have a business license the BATF WILL issue an FFL. If you do not have a business license the BATF will not issue an FFL. Its that easy. Your ability to get a business license is determined by your state local codes.

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Uh, no.
It's not that simple.
I don't have a business license, never have. ATF found no problem with that.

Keb Once you become licensed, you are know as a business, likely in a searchable database. Then you are more likely to be burglarized or robbed. Thus the guns get into the hands of criminals!

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Proof of such nonsense?

"so the government can be "processing background checks 24 hours a day, 7 days a week."
He really is the best gun salesman ever!

To be fair, the zoning stuff blamed on the local municipality doesn't exactly have 'nothing' to do with the ATFs reduction on FFLs; they were directed to review applications for conformance with local jurisdictional zoning rules (that you had properly obtained the exemption/etc) even though this has nothing to do with their role & is a local matter. ATF isn't a local zoning enforcement agency, they do federal tax law (supposedly). What the exercise really showed is how poorly local zoning is enforced

TCB

First, all that business about needing a store front came during the Clinton administration's drive to reduce the number of "kitchen table" gun dealers, who were supposedly responsible for selling guns to criminals. (Sound familiar?)

The new rules, which were never enacted into law, reduced the number of FFL dealers to (IIRC) about 1/4 what it had been. Gun sales dropped as people had to drive greater distances to buy guns. But many people, including some who did not or could not renew their licenses, took to selling privately, a few guns at a time, to avoid being charged as "unlicensed dealers." They could not conduct NICS checks, a service available only to licensed (01 FFL) dealers.

But neither the law nor any rule or regulation defines a dealer; the law basically says that a dealer is someone with a dealer's license. It does not say who must have that license.

Now Obama appears to have taken the opposite tack. Trying to bring as many sales as possible under background checks, he wants those "unlicensed dealers" to get licenses. Unless he plans to impose impossible conditions, that means the rules on "store fronts" and so on will be scrapped and we will be back where we were before Clinton, with the number of licensed dealers tripling or even quadrupling. That may mean that a relatively few applicants will be rejected who otherwise might have succeeded in buying guns, but it will surely also mean an increase in the total number of gun sales. And that will not make Obama popular with the anti-gun gang who want to ban the sale of guns entirely, or at least reduce it to a tightly controlled minimum.

We shall see, but if I am right, Obama is likely to be utterly despised by both the gun people and the anti-gun folks. Lincoln said a president can't please all the people, but this President seems to have developed a unique capacity for attracting the hatred of everyone except his media sycophants.

Jim

The only thing of any real substance in Obama's entire package was the getting rid of the CLEO signoff requirement for NFA applications. Ironically, that was a pro-gun measure!

Anti-gun lawmakers raised the cost of a Federal Firearms License from $10 to $200 in order to shut down small, part-time dealers. It worked and thousands of dealers didn’t renew their licenses. Now Obama wants all the small, part-time dealers to get licenses? Seriously?
Excellent. Let’s all do that. Let’s add a few hundred thousand dealers to the total and see how well the BATFE deals with it.
Obama’s strategy has the potential to backfire in a major way.
I urge everyone to invest $200 in helping it along.
Apply for your very own FFL today!
--- I’m not advocating that we all use our personal FFLs to buy new guns that are easily available through our local gun shops. We need those brick-and-mortar FFLs and they need our money to stay in business. Use your FFL to buy and sell used guns FTF or at gun shows. Or just because you want to screw with stupid politicians. ---
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/apply-license

Japle said:

Anti-gun lawmakers raised the cost of a Federal Firearms License from $10 to $200 in order to shut down small, part-time dealers. It worked and thousands of dealers didn’t renew their licenses. Now Obama wants all the small, part-time dealers to get licenses? Seriously?
Excellent. Let’s all do that. Let’s add a few hundred thousand dealers to the total and see how well the BATFE deals with it.
Obama’s strategy has the potential to backfire in a major way.
I urge everyone to invest $200 in helping it along.
Apply for your very own FFL today!
--- I’m not advocating that we all use our personal FFLs to buy new guns that are easily available through our local gun shops. We need those brick-and-mortar FFLs and they need our money to stay in business. Use your FFL to buy and sell used guns FTF or at gun shows. Or just because you want to screw with stupid politicians. ---
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/apply-license

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Perhaps they can lower the license fee to something affordable for most people. How about these changes.

$1 a year for sales under $10,000
$10 a year for sales over $10,000

If you can pass a background check, you get a FFL 01. No fingerprints or photos needed like the FFL 03 C&R license.

Sounds 'reasonable' to me
.

dogtown tom said:

Uh, no.
It's not that simple.
I don't have a business license, never have. ATF found no problem with that.

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Thats your state or municipality. If you dont need a business license in Texas to run an FFL then the ATF will not require for you to have one. If your state requires a business license to run a gun business then the ATF will require you to have one. What the ATF did under Clinton was to start enforcing state laws pertaining to running a firearms business. Some states have specific rules on the subject and some do not. My state requires a business license to run ANY business and they collect business taxes in lieu of state income tax so they are very aggressive on business license enforcement. Ive known dealers that were shut down by the state for tax issues. The ATF just follows the states lead.

I think too many people think that what Obama has in mind it to license more of those who sell firearms without an FFL. It is far more likely that the game plan is to require the FFL, but reject applications wholesale because the applicant doesn't meet all of the requirements. If they're aren't enough speed bumps they'll add some. He could probably do this with an EO and get away with it.

Japle said:

Anti-gun lawmakers raised the cost of a Federal Firearms License from $10 to $200 in order to shut down small, part-time dealers.....

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$200 every 3 years is peanuts to someone that is actually in the business of being real dealer.

Old Fuff said:

I think too many people think that what Obama has in mind it to license more of those who sell firearms without an FFL. It is far more likely that the game plan is to require the FFL, but reject applications wholesale because the applicant doesn't meet all of the requirements. If they're aren't enough speed bumps they'll add some. He could probably do this with an EO and get away with it.

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Yes, They would shut down dealers if they done meet all of the requirements of being a dealer.

The requirements are that you be in the business of being a dealer. You can do that in a grand fashion or you can do it small time but its really easy to meet all the requirements of being a dealer.

Get a business license. If you arent zoned for it then don't become a dealer or move.
Pay your taxes
Do paperwork

Thats really about it. I'm sorry. I don't see where wanting to be a FFL licensee is fraught with a lot of insurmountable hurdles.

Thats really about it. I'm sorry. I don't see where wanting to be a FFL licensee is fraught with a lot of insurmountable hurdles.

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At the moment probably not. But the BATF&E can add more conditions and requirements, and the president can issue more EO's.

For example they might require that an FFL carry a certain (expensive) amount of liability insurance.

JSH1 said:

$200 every 3 years is peanuts to someone that is actually in the business of being real dealer.

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The original 01 license fee is $200 for 3 years; renewals are $90 for 3 years. 27 CFR 478.42(c)(2)

Thats just conjecture. If they wanted to do that stuff he would have already.

To be honest I dont have a lot of sympathy for unlicensed dealers. They dont do that stuff here any more but I remember going to gun shows 20 years ago where a guy would have a table full of new in box guns selling them cash out the door no paperwork. How are the licensed guys supposed to compete with that ? On top of that it makes us all look like a bunch of reckless criminals.

The President hasnt issued any EO's concerning guns. No President has. A few proclamations that don't amount to much is all. Minor administrative rule tweaks.