School me on Bulls Eye

Bullseye

Bullseye. There is a Bullseye forum...just so you know
There are two general types of Bullseye match shooting. The most common in the USA is called "Conventional Pistol"....basically three stages - slow fire, timed fire, rapid fire. The stages are all 10 shots with the timed and rapid stages divided into two strings of five shots. One stage of each makes for 30 shots...a gallery match often fired indoors at 50 ft. The Gallery is the basic unit of Bullseye match shooting. Put three together and you have a 900 match. Take three 900 matches (270 shots), shoot 90 shot with a .22, 90 with a centerfire gun (.32 cal or larger), and 90 with a .45 and you have a 2700 match. Any sights, except lasers, are permitted. Outdoors the slow fire matches are most often fired at 50 yards. The Timed and Rapid stages are fired on the "short line", 25 yards. All targets have the same apparent diameter regardless of distance. All shooting is one hand unsupported. The current record score for a 2700 match is 2683/2700. Shot in 1974 by Herschel Anderson, it is one of the oldest shooting records. To answer one question, yes, shooters adjust their sights. No sighters allowed.
A good book if you can find a copy is Gil Hebard's "A Pistol Shooters Treasury"...lots of revolver info.

The other style is International shooting. Iron sights only. All shooting begins with the gun down at a 45 degree angle. There are a number of different matches: standard pistol, Sport pistol, Centerfire pistol, Precision pistol (commonly called Free Pistol), Air pistol and Rapid Fire Pistol.
The last three of these - Free, Air, and Rapid - are Olympic events. Free pistol has been part of the modern Olympics since the beginning.
Dedicated Free pistols are very probably the most accurate pistols manufactured.....wraparound grips, incredibly precise sights, set triggers.....60 shots at 50 meters in two hours. The ten ring is less than two inches in diameter. The current world record is 583/600....that is a lot of tens.
How do you manage to shoot rapid? Do have a rapid fire target bay?
Lots more to say but I am tired.

A PPC gun isn't a good choice for bullseye. I'm not sure how modified your revolver is, but if you've got a bull barrel you won't enjoy hanging it out there. Since you're comfortable with irons the easiest path is to find an old 1911 leg gun. There have been several old Giles 1911's on GB lately at reasonable prices. Those or an old Jim Clark sr. Gun are about as good as it gets in my opinion. The advantage of getting a ball gun is that you can shoot every match with it, especially the leg match. Now that shooters don't have to use 230 grain ball ammo, the 1911's have closed some of the accuracy gap with the custom "Beretta" pistols (I use quotes because there's hardly a Beretta part on them).

If you want to use a revolver, get a model 14 and work up a load. If you want a little heavier gun, get a 14-6 (?) with the full under lug. I shot a lot of revolver in bullseye matches until I legged out, now I just shoot the Harry Reeves and Distinguished Revolver matches and use my 1911 for everything else. IF you can maintain your grip on the pistol while cocking it after each shot, for all 5 five shots per string, do it. I don't know too many guys who can, I'm lucky enough to be able to. It's a tremendous advantage. If your grip slips at all after any shot, all shots after it will be a mess. Most guys shoot the timed and rapid double action...and it hurts. Rarely do I see them able to hold the black.

Since you are in Austin, talk to the folks at the Texas State Rifle and Pistol Assn. to find clubs near you. They may have leagues that you can join. For example there are two clubs near me. Both run a 20 week league in the winter and one has a summer league. These leagues shoot at 50 feet for one club and 25 yards for the other since they are indoor leagues. The outdoor matches are at 50 yards for slow fire and 25 yards for timed and rapid fire. The course of fire for the indoor leagues is 10 shots slow fire, 10 shots timed fire and 10 shots rapid fire as Pete described above. This is the National Match Course. Both leagues make awards for both 22 and center fire (32, 38 , 0r 45) The league fee covers either gun and for a slightly higher fee you can shoot both.

Most shooters use semi-autos generally a 22 and a 45. This way you only need these two guns to shoot a complete 2700 since you can use the 45 for both the centerfire match and the 45 match. Revolvers are a little harder to shoot in the timed and rapid fire matches that the semi-autos because most shooters will cock the pistol during the recoil so it is ready to fire the next shot single action once your recovery is complete and you have re-acquired the target. You will be using target loads for your 38 so recoil will be minimal. Take a box of ammunition down to the range and practice your sustained fire cadence and you will be getting a string of 5 shots off in 10 seconds (probably less) by the time you finish the box. In Bullseye we start from a high ready position for timed and rapid fire. Your sights are aligned on the edge of the target when it turns to start the 10 or 20 second time. At the end of the time it will edge again. You will get used to the range officers cadence and can often break the first shot as the target gets fully faced. Now you have the full time for the remaining 4 shots.

Go to the NRA Competitions website and down load the rulebook for "Precision Pistol" It will give all of the commands and procedures that will be used.

Have Fun.

Your pistol will tell you if you need to change the sight adjustment when going from 50 yards to 25 yards. If you do, just put a nail polish don where the 50 yard setting is and a dot of a different color for the 25 yard setting.

Legs

A further note. mtLucas0311 referred to "Legs" and 'legging"out. This is a reference to matches through which a shooter can earn "Distinguished" badges.
Distinguished badges can be earned for Pistol, Revolver, and .22. The shooter must accumulate 30 points in Leg matches. How many points a shooter earns in a match depends on how many shooters there are and how he or she finishes in relation to them. The matches are 30 shots. Iron sights only (unless that has changed). The .45 must be a 1911 a 9mm must be a Beretta (I think that I have that right.) The program is administered as part of the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP).
There is an International Distinguished Badge also.....very difficult to acquire for a lot of reasons...some logistical. The matches must be international so travel is involved...lots of travel.

One of the top shooters in our Bullseye league shoots a DA revolver. Its a relatively long barreled Smith .38 with a Dot. He uses mouse fart loads and shoots everything DA. I'm sure the trigger is tuned as good as humanly possible. His rapid fire stages always score mid-90's, and up.

Keep the trigger moving!

Laphroaig

Jenrick:

Your gun for Standard Pistol will be fine for BE. You may want to consider mounting a dot sight...or you may prefer to stick with irons and keep your skills up with them.

With regard to revolver, you can use it for the centerfire stages...but it's going to take practice. Use a high thumb hold, cock for each shot. It'll take practice, but it's do-able. If you go down that path, I suggest reading the Distinguished Revolver rules and trying for that rating.

Ultimately, you'll want a proper bullseye 1911. I highly recommend going over to the www.targettalk.com board...many of the top ISSF and BE pistol shooters hang out there. Tell them you're looking for a bullseye 1911, and they are likely to send a deal your way.

revolver

One of the fellows that I shoot with earned his Distinguished Revolver badge shooting a S&W 686....double action for the Rapid Fire stages.
The trigger is "as smooth as silk".
Pete

Camp out at http://www.bullseyeforum.net/

Most matches will be 2700 format. Usually you only see Distinguished Revolver events at Regionals and larger competitions.

Revolver technique was a recent topic on the Bullseye-L list: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/bullseye-l-list Look for revolver technique thread and the Harry Reeves thread.

There is also a Bullseye cell phone app that has the range commands and timers for practicing to.

Bullseye Range Commands by David Divins

I've been shooting a revolver in centerfire as long as I've been shooting bullseye. I shoot a m19 S&W with a 6" barrel. I did all the trigger work myself.

I shoot everything double action. So far my best on the NMC is a 294. My average for time and rapid fire is a 98. Last week I shot a 96, 99, 97. The week before it was a 94, 100, 99.

Bullseye or Precision Pistol, also known as Conventional -

Shot a S&W M28 Revolver for fun, using double action for timed and rapid back in the 1970's. Action tuned and polished. The main problem i run into was reloading for the 2nd string fast enough. Some range officers dont allow for 1 revolver on the line of 50 competitors with magazine fed autos.. When ask, "is the line loaded" yell out no if more time is needed. Unless your a high master, it should not matter if using iron sights. Classification goes by your average. Shooting a 45 for center fire lets you fine tune for the 45 stage. The 45 with its larger hole on target, may nick the next higher scoring ring, making for a higher score. Adjusting sights from 50 to 25 yds is helped by the size of the black bullseye, if holding at 6 oclock. The 25 yd black is smaller. Depends on the loading.

If you're only dropping 4 points in timed and rapid on average, you'd be winning the Harry Reeves and Distinguished revolver match at Perry even with a mediocre slow fire score.

There are three targets from the last couple weeks. Those are average for me on timed and rapid fire. I struggle on slow fire, my score hinges upon my slow fire every week.

I shoot in multiple different leagues, some are thirty round NMC only, others are 1800 and 2700 matches.

Go back and read again that my average NMC targets score that. I didn't say my overall timed and rapid targets score that, though it's very rare that I shoot a 95 or less on one.

I'm quite proud of my ability with a double action revolver.

I would be very proud of that level of skill too, those kinds of scores would make you arguably one of the best revolver shooters in the country. I must admit that I am a skeptical person though, especially on Internet forums. I wasn't trying to attack or discredit you in my post, I don't have any way to really tell how good anybody is other than what they say.

It does irritate me however that someone who is a very good shot doesn't appear to compete at the Nationals just a few hours away from their home, or shoot in distinguished revolver matches. You'd most certainly finish in the top 10 even with poor slow fire scores. I am assuming that your screen name is essentially your legal name like mine is. It's disheartening that in my lifetime I'm watching bullseye die, less and less competitors every year as the competitors age, scores slumping in all matches. There's only a few hundred shooters who come out for the revolver matches.

I've been following ljnowell's post the last couple of years and have little doubt he is shooting as well as he says. Top shooters have amazing results, achieved through dedicated practice and natural ability. As I indicated in post #6, I have witnessed and personally scored revolver targets that look a lot like lj's. It can be done!

As far as Bullseye (now called precision pistol) dying, I think that it is experiencing a resurrection of sorts. A new .22 distinguished badge has now been added, and new rules regarding service pistols might be at least partially the reason. I know at least one match at Perry last summer was full to capacity (a buddy of mine drove 4 hours to compete and was turned away, which never happens). I have no idea how many competitors that would entail, but the firing line at Perry extends about as far as the eye can see! Also, at the CMP eastern games last spring, a second line had to be added to the .45 hardball match, which might have been a first also.

Laphroaig

mtlucas0311 said:

I would be very proud of that level of skill too, those kinds of scores would make you arguably one of the best revolver shooters in the country. I must admit that I am a skeptical person though, especially on Internet forums. I wasn't trying to attack or discredit you in my post, I don't have any way to really tell how good anybody is other than what they say.



It does irritate me however that someone who is a very good shot doesn't appear to compete at the Nationals just a few hours away from their home, or shoot in distinguished revolver matches. You'd most certainly finish in the top 10 even with poor slow fire scores. I am assuming that your screen name is essentially your legal name like mine is. It's disheartening that in my lifetime I'm watching bullseye die, less and less competitors every year as the competitors age, scores slumping in all matches. There's only a few hundred shooters who come out for the revolver matches.

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Unfortunately for me it's nearly impossible, though I plan on trying. My disabilities mean that I can't travel alone, and my financial situation means that my wife can't take off work and bring our two kids with us. I have managed to bank a little money this year and it would be good to get a chance to compete in nationals. It's quite a drive for me though, as I can only go about two hours in a car before I need to be out of it for awhile, due to my back.

I understand skeptical people. I see it all the time when I hear about how a new Glock shoots 1" groups at 25 yards ALL DAY LONG, lol. No offense taken we are good.

Laphroaig said:

I've been following ljnowell's post the last couple of years and have little doubt he is shooting as well as he says. Top shooters have amazing results, achieved through dedicated practice and natural ability. As I indicated in post #6, I have witnessed and personally scored revolver targets that look a lot like lj's. It can be done!



As far as Bullseye (now called precision pistol) dying, I think that it is experiencing a resurrection of sorts. A new .22 distinguished badge has now been added, and new rules regarding service pistols might be at least partially the reason. I know at least one match at Perry last summer was full to capacity (a buddy of mine drove 4 hours to compete and was turned away, which never happens). I have no idea how many competitors that would entail, but the firing line at Perry extends about as far as the eye can see! Also, at the CMP eastern games last spring, a second line had to be added to the .45 hardball match, which might have been a first also.



Laphroaig

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Thank you for the kind words. I have people watch me shoot a revolver and ask how I do it, as most people can't shoot a double action revolver anymore. I always tell them it's all about practice. You need to start at 10k rounds or more per year. My favorite way to practice is with clay pigeons. I put them on our 50 yard berm and shoot them one handed double action. When you can hit three or four of five you are in good shape for shooting a revolver in centerfire.

oh man, there is so much to say. start with the bullseye encyclopedia site. also check out Gil Hibert's book. Optics are allowed; a red dot to a newbie is worth about 15 points.





Made sharpshooter my first year, expert my second.



Notice I had to shoot over 700 rapid fire targets before I was sustaining the ~95 level. Also notice the slumps. We all go through difficult periods for shooting. The game is so much more mental than anything else.

As a newbie your first goal should be to have fun. If you can break 700 with the .22 on your first time, you have found your game. Most people will shoot around 550 and have at least 1 alibi.

Make sure your gun and ammo are RELIABLE. I don't know why so many people end up with alibi's... My Pardini has NEVER alibied in a match.

On distance transition, yet, I go 4 clicks between the long line and the short line on my ultra dot, which I think is 1/4th MOA clicks. Maybe 1/8th, can't remember. Anyway the sights will be about 2" high at 25. This depends on what kind of hold you use too. If you use the "Sub-6" hold, you may need to adjust a little more.

Another interesting thing to record and plot is the 20-target standard deviation of your shooting:


As you can see, the more you shoot, the more CONSISTENT you shoot.

I analyzed every shooting session and recorded and scored every target in my progression to Expert. This was very important and informative. I believe that all sports should be data-driven whenever and where-ever possible.

tuj,
It looks like you scanned my brain. I never got around to entering my notebook into a computer.

I like to tell my coworkers who are firearms enthusiasts I like to play a very loud game of statistics. Having lived on a nuclear target in the past must have made me obsessed with Circular_error_probable theory.

sa-tevr: I'm an engineer by training, so it came naturally to me to record my progression. CEP! Funny (or rather grim) stuff. But it is applicable! I've always heard it said in BE as "Shoot your wobble".

As far as Bullseye (now called precision pistol) dying, I think that it is experiencing a resurrection of sorts. A new .22 distinguished badge has now been added, and new rules regarding service pistols might be at least partially the reason. I know at least one match at Perry last summer was full to capacity (a buddy of mine drove 4 hours to compete and was turned away, which never happens). I have no idea how many competitors that would entail, but the firing line at Perry extends about as far as the eye can see! Also, at the CMP eastern games last spring, a second line had to be added to the .45 hardball match, which might have been a first also.

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I've gone to Perry for the last 8 or so straight years for pistol week and at least a few days of rifle week. I started going to Perry around 86' or 87' as a kid (got a little "distracted" in my late teen years and 20's). I'm lucky enough to live about 2 hours away so the commute isn't to bad. The Rimfire leg match has definitely been a hit. You better bring your A game though, all those High Master shooters are gunning for it and the cut is high. I'm usually good for a 280 outdoors but shot a little under that last year and didn't make it. I'm aware of no match last year that was at capacity, and I shot them all. Maybe he got there too late? I'd suspect it was an NRA match as the CMP is incredibly accommodating. NRA...not so much.

LJ, even if you can't make Perry there are always sectionals and regionals for both indoor and outdoor. They always have DR match if they put on a 2700. It looks like you've got at least a 25 yard indoor range to practice at, they don't ever put on sanctioned matches? Not sure where you're at in Illinois, but Bristol Indiana shouldn't be too bad a drive. I've shot there several times, it's a nice facility.