Do you open carry?

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I'm another one that carries concealed when in a public environment. I have no desire to call attention to myself, or alert someone with criminal intentions that I'm armed.
You prefer that the criminals believe you're unarmed? ;)

When we carry concealed we look identical to the folks that are unarmed.

For the majority of bad folks with bad intent, appearing unarmed IS calling attention to yourself. You may not be the easy target they originally thought you were once you go to guns, but when they're interviewing potential victims you will stand out as an easy target.

I don't want to ever need to go to guns, I don't want to surprise the bad folks, I don't want to shoot anyone, and I don't want the legal/civil nightmare that goes along with those things. Even if it's indisputable that you were in the right, life as you presently know it is over for some indeterminate time.

Now, IF I believed the greater threat was the tiny population of bad folks desperate enough to attack an obviously armed person, then yeah I'd be making sure I'm concealed, however, the empirical evidence available says those people are very few and far between.

I guess it depends on what one considers a greater threat; the tiny percent of gun-grab bad guys, or the huge majority of everyday criminals.

Every day, every hour, somewhere in the world someone is getting violently attacked, and 100% of them look like any one of us carrying concealed; they look unarmed.

CC and OC are just two sides of the same coin. The option of playing both sides of that coin is more important than anything else.
 
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I have, but outside of being in the bush or mowing the lawn, its not a habit.

Most of the time its because I've removed my jacket or cover shirt for some reason.

However, since OC is legal, I don't put a lot of effort into concealment. 4 o'clock IWB was the norm, but now I find myself carrying OWB at 3 o'clock. I've been made a few times, but beyond being asked if I'm a cop, or a cop asking (and just asking) if i had my permit, no one really seemed to care.
 
You prefer that the criminals believe you're unarmed?

When we carry concealed we look identical to the folks that are unarmed.

For the majority of bad folks with bad intent, appearing unarmed IS calling attention to yourself. You may not be the easy target they originally thought you were once you go to guns, but when they're interviewing potential victims you will stand out as an easy target.

I don't want to ever need to go to guns, I don't want to surprise the bad folks, I don't want to shoot anyone, and I don't want the legal/civil nightmare that goes along with those things. Even if it's indisputable that you were in the right, life as you presently know it is over for some indeterminate time.

Now, IF I believed the greater threat was the tiny population of bad folks desperate enough to attack an obviously armed person, then yeah I'd be making sure I'm concealed, however, the empirical evidence available says those people are very few and far between.

I guess it depends on what one considers a greater threat; the tiny percent of gun-grab bad guys, or the huge majority of everyday criminals.

Every day, every hour, somewhere in the world someone is getting violently attacked, and 100% of them look like any one of us carrying concealed; they look unarmed.

CC and OC are just two sides of the same coin. The option of playing both sides of that coin is more important than anything else.





That's a great post from the view of the often looked down upon OC'er.
 
For me and where I live OC would make too many uncomfortable, so I CC and we are all happy.
I hope I don't get a infraction for this post :confused:
 
Of course, nothing at all is so cut and dried as either perspective (or the opposite) makes it out to be.

Are you more noticeable to certain people because you have a firearm on your hip? Of course. Would some of them want that firearm just as much or more than a big flashy watch you might have on your arm? Surely. Will some of them be perfectly willing to roll the dice and go for your gun? Absolutely. Why do we here only occasional reports of that happening (to average citizens)? Primarily because there just aren't many non-law-enforcement types who do this, at all, in our big old society so there really isn't enough data to make any realistic sort of assessment of likelihood.

Many of the criminal element have suffered gunshot wounds before and don't have a whole lot of fear of them -- coupled with a predator's confidence and a member of the criminal underclass's nihilistic attitude toward the promise of a long, healthy life. It is wise to remember that a quite large number of criminals is MUCH more willing and ready to enter a lethal force encounter than any of us is likely to be, and have waaaay more experience at it.

On the other hand, does the suspicion (or guarantee!) that you are carrying a firearm and could use it, given the chance, mark you as a "hard target?" It could, indeed! We can't ever say how much but "somewhat," certainly. Are there some criminals who really do fall into the stereotype of being "lazy" and looking for "easy pickings" or "low hanging fruit?" Not willing to try to get the jump on someone who might have the ability to harm them back? Surely there must be.

So instead of declaring that it is one way or the other, we should each simply say, "I tend to believe that one or the other is the more common likelihood, or is the version of reality I like to believe is true," or "I choose to adhere to one perspective because it supports the choice I wanted to make to hide my gun (or show my gun)."
 
You prefer that the criminals believe you're unarmed?
Yes, actually. I'd rather not show my hole card. Seeing you are armed may dissuade a criminal from trying to commit a crime, but this is inherently unprovable. On the other hand, if a criminal is really intent on mischief, no matter what, and he sees you are armed, he'll take you out before you even know what hit you. The first idea that you have that you are in trouble is when you are already staring at his drawn gun and he's demanding you hand over yours, or you've already been knocked on the head. There are at least a few documented instances of this happening; I've posted citations in previous threads, but can't look them up now.

On the other hand, if the bad guy does not know you are armed, you can exploit an opportunity to act, such as the second man in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8o4HnBjOhc&list=FLFOho_heEOtx4mtfyTF9xvw&index=3

When we carry concealed we look identical to the folks that are unarmed.

For the majority of bad folks with bad intent, appearing unarmed IS calling attention to yourself. You may not be the easy target they originally thought you were once you go to guns, but when they're interviewing potential victims you will stand out as an easy target.
No, not necessarily. Criminals size up more than whether or not they see a weapon. They also look for demeanor, body language, alertness, how out of place you appear in your surroundings, etc. If you appear timid, distracted, lost, etc. they will more likely target you.
 
semi opencarry when I'm working/playing on my property. when I leave the kingdom it's all CC. :cool:
 
Seeing you are armed may dissuade a criminal from trying to commit a crime, but this is inherently unprovable. On the other hand, if a criminal is really intent on mischief, no matter what, and he sees you are armed, he'll take you out before you even know what hit you.
This was my point. Some very small percentage of criminals are willing to take on an armed target. Yet 100% of concealed carry citizens (or those that look exactly like them) WILL get attacked (or are currently being attacked).

No, not necessarily. Criminals size up more than whether or not they see a weapon. They also look for demeanor, body language, alertness, how out of place you appear in your surroundings, etc. If you appear timid, distracted, lost, etc. they will more likely target you.
That's a non sequitur. We weren't discussing citizens with good situational awareness and citizens with poor situational awareness. We have or lack good SI regardless of our method of carry, or no carry.
 
Why I don't open carry.

My reasons for not open carrying have nothing to do with "element of surprise" or "scaring the sheeple" if you want to open carry by all means go right ahead.
I support your right to make your own decision.

I open carry at work because it's a requirement. My experience over the years has been that people take it as an opportunity to make stupid comments about it to me, like "Here comes the guard he's got a gun better watch out or he'll shoot you."

I've also read comments on various forums in which the poster took great pleasure in addressing an open carrier in public to either tell him what kind of an idiot he was or how grateful he was that the carrier was supporting the Second Amendment.

I find both approaches to be incredibly annoying and if I can avoid that by not open carrying I will.

That's my primary reason everything else is pretty secondary. I like to wear my shirts untucked and I'm not going to change how I dress to accomadate open carry.
 
This was my point. Some very small percentage of criminals are willing to take on an armed target. Yet 100% of concealed carry citizens (or those that look exactly like them) WILL get attacked (or are currently being attacked).
So one hundred percent of (apparently) unarmed citizens will be attacked? :scrutiny: You do realize that that is what you just stated? That all unarmed people will be attacked?

Now I'm going to be charitable and assume that this is simply an instance of inexcusably sloppy language, and that what you meant to say is that 100% of the victims criminals attack appear to be unarmed.

But in fact even that is not true.

http://bearingarms.com/2015/04/16/man-attacked-walmart-wont-open-carry/

http://www.annarbor.com/news/crime/unarmed-man-attempts-to-rob-emu-student-carrying-holstered-gun/

That's a non sequitur. We weren't discussing citizens with good situational awareness and citizens with poor situational awareness. We have or lack good SI regardless of our method of carry, or no carry.
No, it's not a non sequitur. Criminals do not attack everyone they see. They select their victims out from the population around them, deciding whom to attack, and whom to pass over; and the vast majority of people the criminals see -- as in nearly all of them -- are not openly armed. Therefore it is obvious that criminals are choosing their victims on the basis of something more than the than merely the appearance of a weapon. This is self evident. This is one of those things that falls into "the sky is blue" level of obviousness.
 
, and since all or nearly all of their potential victims are not openly armed, they are using other criteria than the appearance of a weapon to make that determination.




That is not only hypocritical but also proves a point.
 
So one hundred percent of (apparently) unarmed citizens will be attacked? :scrutiny:
Interesting twist, but I never said that.

But in fact even that is not true.
You can find two cases; I can find thousands of victims of crime who look exactly like I do when I'm carrying concealed.

Criminals do not attack everyone they see.
:scrutiny: Thanks for the information. I didn't claim they did, so I'm not sure to what you are responding.
 
That is not only hypocritical but also proves a point.
Your point obviously being "see, you're admitting that criminals only attack unarmed people!"

Except I'm not.

I've even provided links to cases of openly armed people being attacked, so clearly being openly armed is NOT some sort of guarantee against attack.

God, it amazes me, in threads like this, people's ability to read selectively, and to ignore the obvious. This is why these discussions are usually so unproductive. Some people are just downright determined to miss the point.

Yes, most criminals, the vast majority, by preference, attack unarmed people. They are the easiest victims. This is obvious. But sometimes -- and there are documented cases of this on record -- they attack armed victims. Sometimes they even do it to obtain the armed citizen's weapon itself, which is not only usually worth more than any amount of cash that the average person carries around with him, but is also itself useful as a tool for the commission of more violent crimes. And while it may be possible that a criminal, seeing you armed, will pass you by and select another victim in your place, this is unknowable, and unprovable, since no criminal is ever going to announce to anyone that "I would have robbed that guy, but he had a gun, so I left him alone." What is knowable, on the other hand, is that there are documented instances of armed people being attacked. And there are also documented instances of concealed carriers, who were initially believed by their assailants to be unarmed, successfully turning the tables on their attackers because they were, at an opportune moment, able to deploy a weapon the assailant was entirely unaware of -- indeed I provided a link to a video that shows an example of this very thing (it also shows an example of an openly armed man who -- while a cop, not an armed citizen, and so not exactly comparable -- was nevertheless attacked and killed despite being openly armed).
 
nteresting twist, but I never said that.
Yes, you did. That is exactly what the statement "Yet 100% of concealed carry citizens (or those that look exactly like them) WILL get attacked (or are currently being attacked)" means. 100% of concealed carry citizens WILL be attacked. You said 100% of concealed carry citizens WILL get attacked.

Dude, I'm offering you an out. I'm sure that's not what you meant, but that IS what you said. Denying it makes you look ridiculous.
 
Where I live, people can do it but don't. I feel (perhaps incorrectly) that it might make some people uncomfortable, and I prefer to avoid doing that.

I also don't want the easily most valuable thing in sight wherever I go to be attached to ME. There is not much reason for an opportunist to target me. I am a large male who generally looks like he doesn't have two nickels to rub together. I am usually driving an ancient pickup truck worth about $500 that stands out like a sore thumb due to its unusual appearance. I would prefer to look like a slightly risky zero-value target than walk around with a relatively valuable handgun on my hip that I might or might not be able to reach faster than some desperate guy who is hurting for a fix.

That's just me. If others wish to open carry, more power to them. I am not judging them.
 
This thread as they usually do has drifted way off the original intent. It's starting to get personal and that should not happen here on THR. Why no get back to what you do and why and not tell others what they should do or think?

Just to add one thing to my first post, I don't consider carrying a handgun on my belt in the woods open carry. It's just woods carry IMO.
 
Its fun watching people reach for anything to prove their point.

This one has run its course.
 
I've even provided links to cases of openly armed people being attacked, so clearly being openly armed is NOT some sort of guarantee against attack.



Yet you post statements such as this..



the vast majority of people the criminals see -- as in nearly all of them -- are not openly armed.




What is one to think?
 
What is one to think?
One is to think what I clearly say. And I have explained it in pretty thorough detail, in pretty explicit language, that should leave little room for misunderstanding. Since this clearly isn't enough, I'll try one more time.

1) Most criminals clearly attack unarmed people, as they are the easiest victims.
2) Some criminals -- and we have documented evidence of this -- attack armed people, even though those people are armed. This means that...
3) Being armed is NOT a guaranteed deterrent, despite what some people assert. In addition...
4) There are a number of documented instances where people who only appeared to be unarmed, but in fact were armed, were able to gain the upper hand because they were able, at an opportune moment, to deploy a weapon their assailants did not suspect they had. Therefore...
5) You have to look at all these factors, and weigh whether or not the unknowable, unprovable possibility that a clearly visible weapon will deter an attack, against the known certainty that attacks do sometimes occur against armed people, and the known certainty that concealed weapons, deployed at opportune moments, have turned the tables on armed criminals, and enabled armed citizens to get the upper hand. You have to weigh these factors and decide which is the greater.

6) And finally, somewhat separately, while the appeal to authority is, quite often, fallacious, it is not always. Authorities are considered authorities because they have greater education, training, knowledge, or experience in a given area. Being an authority does not automatically make one right (there are all kinds of examples of authorities being wrong). Nevertheless, a layman should be highly cautious before dismissing the opinion of an expert in his field. And when a majority of experts come down on one side of an issue, that ought to make anyone think three times before deciding that he is right and all the experts are wrong. The great majority of reputable firearms trainers, who not only shoot more and train more than most of us ever will, but who also research more and look at far more examples of armed citizens using their weapons, come down on the side of concealed carry over open carry. That ought to factor into anyone's calculations.
 
Sam1911 said:
Many of the criminal element have suffered gunshot wounds before and don't have a whole lot of fear of them -- coupled with a predator's confidence and a member of the criminal underclass's nihilistic attitude toward the promise of a long, healthy life. It is wise to remember that a quite large number of criminals is MUCH more willing and ready to enter a lethal force encounter than any of us is likely to be, and have waaaay more experience at it.

This thread is on the way out but I wanted to address this point.

When you get your mind set in a groove and something comes along and takes your mind out of it your mind needs time to reprocess and reorient.

So when you expect your gun to deter the bad guy and it doesn't you're going to find yourself behind the curve. And that's true if it's open carry or you draw your concealed weapon in self defense.

Sam is pretty much on point with this, a lot criminals don't give a damn about your gun. I'm not some experienced authority but I've seen criminals look me right in the eye and dare me to shoot them. I make a point of never assuming that me or my gun will have any deterrent value and I always assume worst case.
 
1) Most criminals clearly attack unarmed people, as they are the easiest victims.
2) Some criminals -- and we have documented evidence of this -- attack armed people, even though those people are armed. This means that...
3) Being armed is NOT a guaranteed deterrent, despite what some people assert. In addition...
I'm glad you finally agree with me.

Remember I said very plainly,

‘‘Now, IF I believed the greater threat was the tiny population of bad folks desperate enough to attack an obviously armed person, then yeah I'd be making sure I'm concealed, however, the empirical evidence available says those people are very few and far between.

I guess it depends on what one considers a greater threat; the tiny percent of gun-grab bad guys, or the huge majority of everyday criminals.‘‘

If you've prioritized 'some criminals' over 'most criminals' that's OK, you're free to do so. Let's keep the discussion civil and let it move on OK?
 
Originally Posted by Trunk Monkey
Originally Posted by Sam1911
Many of the criminal element have suffered gunshot wounds before and don't have a whole lot of fear of them -- coupled with a predator's confidence and a member of the criminal underclass's nihilistic attitude toward the promise of a long, healthy life. It is wise to remember that a quite large number of criminals is MUCH more willing and ready to enter a lethal force encounter than any of us is likely to be, and have waaaay more experience at it.
This thread is on the way out but I wanted to address this point.

When you get your mind set in a groove and something comes along and takes your mind out of it your mind needs time to reprocess and reorient.

So when you expect your gun to deter the bad guy and it doesn't you're going to find yourself behind the curve. And that's true if it's open carry or you draw your concealed weapon in self defense.

Sam is pretty much on point with this, a lot criminals don't give a damn about your gun. I'm not some experienced authority but I've seen criminals look me right in the eye and dare me to shoot them. I make a point of never assuming that me or my gun will have any deterrent value and I always assume worst case.
THIS^

In addition to what I've posted above, let me add the following:

I have been a police officer for going on sixteen years, and a detective for ten. The VAST majority of people I have ever arrested have gone to jail for one reason above all others: poor impulse control. Or perhaps I should say two reasons -- the other is slightly different, but very closely related: reduced ability to consider the long-term consequences of one's actions. They're not quite the same. I've seen poor impulse control get people locked up again and again and again. They want something, they take it. They feel an impulse, they act on it. They get angry at someone, they attack that person. These people live in the moment, and don't think about what happens next. Here I'm talking about strong emotional impulses that they just act on instantaneously, without thinking.

The second issue -- inability to think about long-term consequences -- is related, but not quite the same. It's not an instantaneous impulse, but rather a general inability to think out the consequences of a specific act. For example: third offense petty larceny. It's a felony in my jurisdiction. It's not necessarily a quick impulse, like someone ticking you off and you lash out in a fit of temper. There's no sudden provocation or flare of strong emotion to override one's reason. But I've locked up countless suspects who shoplifted some small item like a DVD, or a pack of razor blades -- items worth just a couple of bucks. But they have two prior convictions, and the third is a felony, with mandatory state penitentiary time. Would you throw away five years of your life for a DVD or a pack of Gillette Mach 3 blades? No, no rational person would. The risk is not worth the reward.

But I see these criminals do it all the time.

To take another example. A few years ago, we caught a murderer who shot someone in one of our more depressed parts of town. It took us mere hours to catch him. Less than thirty minutes after he shot his victim, he walked up to another man to bum a cigarette off him. The man noticed the gun in the thug's waistband. Alarmed, the man asked him why he had a gun. The thug actually said -- I kid you not -- "I just busted a cap in some dude over in Huntersville." Needless to say, this man was a witness at the thug's trial. Think about that. Would you walk up to a complete stranger and tell him you just committed a murder? It was one of the most supremely stupid things I have ever heard of. But in that moment, it was more important to this thug to posture as a tough guy than anything else. He had to show he was a real gangsta, and that trumped even self preservation. I responded to a murder once where a guy saw a dude he had a beef with walking down the street, and then came out of and shot the man in the face with a shotgun, right in front of his (the thug's) own apartment building. I've taken statements from witnesses who saw suspects walk up to a party where twenty people were drinking and celebrating, shoot someone in front of all these witnesses. These are stupid, reckless acts, and people do them.

This is the big problem I have with depending on open carry as a deterrent: people who do so are expecting criminals to make the same rational calculation that they themselves would in the same circumstances, and criminals don't. That's why they're criminals. That's why they're constantly in trouble with the law. That's why they're in and out of prison. They don't make the same rational calculation most law abiding people do. They are, on the average, far more stupid and impulsive and aggressive, and these traits are why they have long criminal records.
 
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While I am not a police officer I have a job that requires me to interact with homeless and street people (quite a few of whom are criminals) on a daily basis.
The one overwhelming characteristic I see among these people is that everyone E.V.E.R.Y.O.N.E they meet is a mark.

They try to get over on everyone they meet. They're absolutely convinced they're smarter than you and when they look at you the fact that you're openly armed is not a deal breaker. If it was open carriers would never have their weapons stolen. If they can figure out away to take it off of you they will and if they can't they'll look for someone else.

I've said it before but your gun does not intimidate them in the slightest. I've been standing in line at 7-11 and had a homeless guy walk through the door, take one look at me and get right in my face and tell me that "I'm security around here M***********". Mind you I wasn't just standing there in cargo shorts open carrying a Glock 42, I was wearing body armor, carrying a taser, pepper spray and a gun and it didn't phase this guy one bit. And remember this was completely unprovoked. (Side note: Around here homeless people attack each other all the time and I have never run into one that isn't armed with something and not only will but very likely has used it without the slightest hesitation)

When I open carry(at work) I'm very conscious about who's around me, who's on my strong side and especially who's behind me. If at all possible I don't let anyone behind me. I don't often stop in convenience stores at work but if I do I find one that isn't busy so I'm not in the middle of a crowd. As I mentioned before I wear my gun in such a way that my arm naturally covers it .
 
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