Are floating firing pins safe?

chopinbloc said:

Are floating firing pins safe?

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No. Nothing is totally safe (except uncompressed air, according to our safety engineers. No way to hurt yourself with uncompressed air). You could die from choking the next time you eat something (according to Injury Facts 2015, choking is the fourth leading cause of unintentional injury death. 4,800 people died from choking in 2013), or you could die in a traffic accident the next time you get in your car (latest figures I saw were 32,675 in 2014).

Either of the above are far more likely than a floating firing pin causing you a problem.

But only you can evaluate your personal risk due to a floating firing pin. If you feel they're a problem, stay away from guns that have them. Given the literally hundreds of millions of guns that have been produced with floating firing pins and the lack of any real data showing that it's a problem, i don't believe that I'll worry about any of mine.

Any gun that has a spring loaded firing pin, cocked back and held in place by some kind of releasing latch, can become unlatched and fire when dropped unless it has a feature blocking the firing line from landing. Has nothing to do with a "floating firing pin" which are no more or less likely to fire than any other gun with an inline firing pin. That why we have double action (uncocked) autos and revolvers for concealed carry, transfer bars or similar type auto safeties, and don't typically carry single action revolvers with the hammer back , or single action autos without special locking and blocking features.

timsr said:

Any gun that has a spring loaded firing pin, cocked back and held in place by some kind of releasing latch,

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But what if it DOESNT have a spring-loaded firing pin, cocked back and held in place by some kind of releasing latch?

What if it has a free-floating firing pin (which is kind of the topic of this thread)?

FL-NC said:

The only thing I can offer on the subject is that we were taught in the SF weapons course that the makarov pistol isn't drop safe, and that if there is a round in the chamber and the weapon is on fire and gets dropped landing on the hammer that it can discharge. Not into Makarovs, never really messed with them much myself, just know how to take it apart, put it together, load/clear, shoot.

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Well, according to California it is, and I'm inclined to agree with them based on my personal knowledge of them. I own a Bulgie myself and have had it fully apart. The hammer IS blocked from touching the firing pin unless you pull the trigger. If you look closely there's a small detent that pops up and blocks it. It's actually an incredibly safe little gun. The Tokarev is, likewise, so long as the hammer is either cocked or resting on the half-cock notch. The half-cock notch is very strong, and has been shown to catch the hammer during a hammer-follow situation even when the sear does not; you'd have to break two separate lugs to get a cocked Tokarev to discharge if dropped.

The Polish P-64 (which I carry) does NOT have a free-floating firing pin, but it is NOT drop-safe. The hammer is not blocked, and if it falls hammer-down it can discharge. However, it's not coming out of its holster unless I do handstands due to it being under my, umm, lovehandles, so I don't really worry about it.

Oh.

Oh my.

I normally really like the LG posts, but this is just absolutely all wrong.

I started typing it out, and its already been pretty much covered... but...omgz, thats horrible, they're a public valued resource :/

There are no "floating" firing pins it's all a myth. Below is a few examples of supposed floating firing pins.



Now as anyone can very clearly see they sink like a rock, they do not "float" at all. It's all just myth for those who choose to believe there is such a thing.



Ron

I read a thread not too long ago where the consensus among many regard the AR was that it can become a concern with soft primers in say, commercial .223 ammo. So I would say that ARs are not drop safe, and unfortunately even the manual safety does nothing to block the firing pin. I've never quite figured out why rifles and shotguns never have the same attention to positive safety as handguns despite being just as likely to be dropped in a combat zone (or so I imagine).

@Reloadron

Reloadron, you picked the wrong liquid. Get a big tub of mercury then run the test again and I can assure you that those are indeed floating firing pins. Or they're witches. I get those two tests confused.

Matt

I've never head of a firing pin "sticking forward" and slam firing in an AK or AR.

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I had a slam fire with an AK once, it had never been cleaned and was around 4K rounds worth of Russian junk ammo dirtying it up. I sprayed a little carb cleaner in the firing pin hole and it's been going ever since.

I assume the firing pin had been forward since the last time I shot it and the gunk around it had cooled off and became hard resulting in a firing pin stif enough to set off one primer.

sawdeanz said:

I read a thread not too long ago where the consensus among many regard the AR was that it can become a concern with soft primers in say, commercial .223 ammo. So I would say that ARs are not drop safe, and unfortunately even the manual safety does nothing to block the firing pin. I've never quite figured out why rifles and shotguns never have the same attention to positive safety as handguns despite being just as likely to be dropped in a combat zone (or so I imagine).

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The reason is that pistols are normally carried barrel-down and are far more likely to impact a hard object muzzle-first. On the other hand, a rifle that falls will tend to fall at an angle due to its center of gravity, which won't result in any significant straight-line force in the direction of the primer.

Furthermore, it's also much more difficult to immobilize the firing pin on a rifle than it is on a pistol because most pistols are so much simpler than rifles. With a very few exceptions (Desert Eagle being one of them), almost all pistols on the market today are blowbacks (recoil-operated is just a fancy term for "delayed blowback"). This means there's no rotating bolt and the firing pin is relatively easy to access and block because it's not contained in complex moving bolt assembly that must have independent strength. On a pistol, the bolt face is just machined in into the slide, and moves straight backwards and forwards. Because there's no rotational or tilting motion, it's perfectly predictable. On a rifle, it rotates, tilts, or slides forward and back in its carrier, and the complexity of such positioning and the risk of weakening the part pretty much precludes it.

A rifle COULD have a firing pin return spring (sometimes called a sprung spring), but the military tends to avoid them because it's one more part to go wrong (it can wear out, or break and jam the pin). The very early SKS rifles had them, but the Soviets quickly realized it wasn't necessary and removed them. None of the countries that copied the SKS used it, either. A few aftermarket companies using scare tactics have tried to convince people to buy their spring kits or let them modify their gun, but it almost invariably results in complaints of malfunctions and broken firing pins.

So there you have it. The reasons why pretty much no one puts a firing pin immobilizer on a rifle.

Take any 1911, put a primed empty case in the chamber, drop the slide, lower the hammer to rest against the stop plate.

Now, take a ball pein hammer and start whacking the back of the pistol's hammer until your question is answered. Come back here and report your results, please. Let's bust this myth.

Why would your home defense shotgun be secured in a way where it could fall 3 stories and land on the muzzle?

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you store it next to your zip line???

you store it next to your zip line???

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Even so you have it firmly secured to the tactical wheelbarrow with the 27 point uber-sling-parachute-jet pack how could it fall.

I did not hear the LG video claim it was a danger of the floating firing pin inertia, but of releasing the hammer and there being no firing pin safety. A good sear/hammer engagement will prevent this ideally, so it becomes a "what if" situation about mechanical wear and impact shock.

That's funny Matt. I thought about be witch reference too but figured the younger crowd wouldn't get it.

For those young enough to not get it, watch Monty Phrhon and the Holy Grail.

Exposed hammer firearms have a slight propensity to go off when they hit hammer first onto a hard surface. It's happened just enough to cause some institutional concerns and they write a spec excluding them.

Of course, in the day when they were common, the operator was blamed for negligence in letting them hit the ground in the first place. Today we blame the manufacturer as no gun owner ever takes responsibility for his or her own incompetence. AKA "Rem 700." We go to great lengths now to assign negligence to deeper pockets in denial that we are only jacking up our own purchase price in the future.

Don't drop the gun in the first place and there is no issue. Impossible? Perhaps. Reducible and preventative? CERTAINLY. It's a mindset. We accept that if we handle them at all they are loaded, no matter what, right? First rule of safety.

Accept they will go off, no matter what, and you treat them in a manner which reduces dropping them.

We have seriously reduced negligent discharges by treating guns as if they are loaded, then extend the practice. Treat them as if they will go off if dropped. And shoot you. It's not like they can't - every now and then we do read where it happens. We read about it in this thread, dirty guns left maintenance free discharge inadvertently. We collectively are quite able to defeat the apparent safety of even cocked and locked firearms, or those which have at least on paper no physical ability to hit the primer sufficiently. It can happen - so don't let it.

Handle firearms in a manner where you see the risk in dropping it and you won't do it - so much. We've made them pretty safe, it's US who remains as the problem child generation after generation. Humans can defeat engineering simply thru neglect.

Tirod :

I believe you are correct . how ever in the case of the R700 and what I assume is the trigger issues , I disagree . I've always kept my guns cleaned and well maintained . Well I though I did until my buddy bought an old R700 in 270 . It seemed to work well the first time out ( only shot 30 rounds-ish) How ever the second time out on the 5th or 6th shot when he closed the bolt BANG !!! I was actually watching him at the time and thought he must have had his finger on the trigger . We unloaded the firearm and I was able to get the firearm to go click when closing the bolt 3 out of 15 times . One time it went click when I tried to engage the safety .

So we obviously stop for the day and I went home and removed the action from the stock so to see and get access to the trigger group .




That is pretty dirty right . Well it was a used gun but he did clean the rifle just like most of us clean are firearms before taking it out the first time . hmm that does not sound right if the trigger looks like it does above right ? Turns out like most of us he did not remove the action from the stock to clean the rifle . He just cleaned the bore and cleaned all other areas he could reach with solvent , brush and rag . The thing is you cant get to all the important parts of the trigger that way . Until then I had rarely removed the action from the stock to clean my rifles .

I've always had the opinion that if a firearm is going to fail do to being dirty . The failure should be NOT to fire .

No one should consider any mechanical item perfectly safe from jar off, or negligent discharge due to a free floating firing pin impacting a primer. Drakes Gun Works http://www.drakesgunworks.com/ conducted drop tests of a M1911. His results are instructive of the risk of free floating firing pins.

Drop Testing

I dropped a 1911 over 200 times from different heights and onto different surfaces. Empty brass with Winchester primers were used. The test pistol, built form a Caspian frame and slide, took a lot of abuse. What were the results? A 1911 with a Ti pin might fire when dropped onto concrete from 6 feet. A steel pin will fire from 4 feet when dropped onto concrete. Use a Ti firing pin with an XP firing pin spring on all non firing pin block 1911's and try not to drop it onto the muzzle.

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Results with pictures here: http://www.1911.net16.net/drop1/drop1.htm

For several decades now I have been having internet arguments with four types of fools who do not believe that M1 Garands, M14's, M1a's, mini 14's can slamfire either in battery or out of battery. I have submitted many accounts of in battery and out of battery slamfires that have occurred in these mechanisms, and I have a very long list of primer ignition in other mechanisms just due to bolt closure.

Questions on reloading for an M1Garand

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5557669&postcount=4

How Common Are Slam Fires or Dropped Rifles Going Off?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=10136888&postcount=10

Except for the roller bolts, all semi automatic rifle mechanisms have free floating firing pins and all semi auto matic rifle mechanisms have reports of slamfires due to incidental firing pin contact with the primer. I believe modern handguns have firing pin blocks because pistol primers have more sensitive primers. The Germans incorporated a firing pin block in the P-38 so they must have had a few dropped pistols go bang.

Slamfire . Were those 1911 drop test results that discharged the primer do to only the firing pin hitting the primer under no other force then the inertia of the firing pin it self ?

Were those 1911's still fully cocked back after the drop test ? or did the hammer hit the firing pin after being dropped ?

The 1911 test would seem relivent here but slam fires not so much . We are talking about the round already being loaded in the chamber and has been in your safe ready for HD/SD . If you grab that ready to fire firearm and drop it will the floating firing pin by it self with no other forces acting upon it but it's own weight and inertia set off the cartridge . I say no way in hell that's happening .

Slamfire . Were those 1911 drop test results that discharged the primer do to only the firing pin hitting the primer under no other force then the inertia of the firing pin it self ?

Were those 1911's still fully cocked back after the drop test ? or did the hammer hit the firing pin after being dropped ?

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It is my recollection that Drake Gun Works loaded a primed case in the chamber, lowered the hammer, and dropped the pistol onto its muzzle from various heights. I don't recall seeing the slide cocking the hammer after discharge.

The primers in the test all went off due to the kinetic impact of the firing pin alone.

Slamfires in rifles may not exactly fit into this category, but that does not deter me from getting on my soap box and shaking my fist at those who told the shooting community that slamfires are only due to shooter negligence and there is no such thing as primer sensitivity. These guys knew better. The Prime Davidian was the Government Expert at the Ichord hearings on the M16. He actually submitted the Government report on M16 slamfires and primer sensitivity under his letterhead to all American ammunition manufacturers. His office set the M16 primer requirements which made the military small rifle primer less sensitive than commercial primers. This was to reduce the number of slamfires the Army and USMC were experiencing with their M16's. And yet, much later, when asked whether Garands had a design defect that allowed the weapon to slamfire, in the Dope Bag of the American Riflemen, the Prime Davidian deigned there was any such design fault, that the action was perfect, flawless, did not allow incidental contact between the firing pin and primer, and therefore, any slamfires were all due to worn out guns and high primers. That is, shooter negligence. There was no such thing as primer sensitivity, a primer was a primer was a primer. He knew better, and he lied. His authority is such this is the accepted version for most shooters.

Slamfire

For several decades now I have been having internet arguments with four types of fools who do not believe that M1 Garands, M14's, M1a's, mini 14's can slamfire either in battery or out of battery. I have submitted many accounts of in battery and out of battery slamfires that have occurred in these mechanisms, and I have a very long list of primer ignition in other mechanisms just due to bolt closure.

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I have pretty much respected your post and research. However, just because someone disagrees with you does not make them a fool. “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.” words of wisdom from Mark Twain. Pretty arrogant of you with calling people a fool simply because they disagree with your views and you are doing it more and more. Not very High Road of you is it?

Ron

See now that's interesting because I can see a primer going off if the hammer is pushing the firing pin forward do to the hammers spring tension . I'm thinking maybe a Beretta 92 series may have the same potential problem or any firearm pushing the firing pin fully forward on a loaded chamber ????? .

Is the firing pin even floating if the hammer is pressing against it ???

Are there any semi auto rifles that once you chamber a round you can decock the hammer ?? AR are a no , Stricker fired pistols like Glock and XD and others would be a no .

Not sure about you guys but this convo just got interesting to me .

OP--
After watching the vid, I believe that one possible reason your results showed no firing is because your metal plate "bounces"/moves quite a bit, cushioning the blow.

Consider the action of an inertial bullet puller--the block of wood (or whatever) must be fairly stout.

If your block of iron were on pavement or another solid object, that would better simulate a sudden stop of the firearm, and (perhaps) a more noteworthy dent in the primer.

I think it behooves anyone shooting a semiauto rifle to use ammunition made with semiautos in mind, e.g. don't reload for a mini-14 or an AR with soft primers intended for bolt-actions with light mainsprings.

The primary concern I'd have would be a slamfire during initial chambering, either from inertia and an out-of-spec primer, or from a stuck-forward firing pin. Always point a firearm in a safe direction when chambering a round. A drop straight down on the muzzle from the top of a building or whatever, even assuming an impact from a realistic height could set off a round with an appropriately hard primer, is going to put a round down into the concrete. However, a slamfire with the rifle pointed horizontally in an unsafe direction could result in a tragedy. Remember Rule Two.