What AR15 brands should be avoided?

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I've got a CMMC lower on a PSA upper, that has had at least 10,000 rounds thru it without a problem. I did the build myself, and a few months ago went to Front Sight in Pahrump, NV and shot their 4 day course, with at least 1200 rounds down range. Never even cleaned, it other than putting some CLP on the bolt at the end of the day. Note at 200 yards I was able to place 5 rounds within 2.5" using a bi-pod, and a inexpensive Vortex scope.

I had slightly over $500.00 (not including the scope) in the entire rifle, so using inexpensive accessories I was able to compete with the much higher dollar rifles at range those 4 days. One guy shooting next to me had a high dollar Colt with all the bells and whistles, and had a hard time keeping all his rounds on the silhouette, let alone grouping 5 rounds.
 
In this day and age, it's very uncommon for guns to be total hand grenades, and even the lowest end AR's generally work fine. I personally think that for the money, some of the "bad" ones are Bear Creek Arsenal and ATI. Those are the only ones I've dealt with where I really thought that the quality was poor, but I'm not saying they're terrible or that they wouldn't work.
I'm shocked to see Bear Creek mentioned as a bad one! Someone else was recommending it to me before, and then I saw one in my local shop and the dealer was speaking highly of it because it has a Wylde chamber. It was used at $700, but it looked pretty banged up, so you never know if there was something wrong with it or not.
 
the dealer was speaking highly of it because it has a Wylde chamber.

Wylde chamber is utterly meaningless in terms of quality. You can put a wylde chamber in a lead pipe. You have 3 generally available chamber types: .223, 5.56 and wylde. None are an indication of quality, simply slightly different chamber specs.
 
Wylde chamber is utterly meaningless in terms of quality. You can put a wylde chamber in a lead pipe. You have 3 generally available chamber types: .223, 5.56 and wylde. None are an indication of quality, simply a slightly different chamber specs.
Ok, I understand now. I actually had never even heard of it until I was at the gun shop just 2 days ago and the dealer was showing it to me and telling me about how great it was supposed to be. It's quite possible he was talking up this gun to me because he really wanted to get rid of that beat up rifle. It looked pretty beat up!
 
Ok, I understand now. I actually had never even heard of it until I was at the gun shop just 2 days ago and the dealer was showing it to me and telling me about how great it was supposed to be. It's quite possible he was talking up this gun to me because he really wanted to get rid of that beat up rifle. It looked pretty beat up!
The Bear Creek guns are like $550 new I think. None of the budget ARs are necessarily bad, I just think there are better options for the money. As for the "cheap" rifles and uppers, I've been impressed by Hardened Arms, Palmetto State Armory premium stuff, Radical Firearms, DelTon, and Smith and Wesson. This is based on working on them, and looking at fit, finish, parts quality, specs, and all around value.

The problem with chamberings is that manufacturers don't all follow the same standards in tolerances, and lesser manufacturers let chambers out of the factory that aren't exactly what they wanted to make. This makes the "Wylde" chambering meaningless unless it's done by a company like Spike's, Noveske, or Daniel Defense.
 
Meh, I have had them all. From non-spec RRA's to Noveske. As long as they are assembled correctly, they all work like intended. Wear parts break.

All have been Uber reliable. The YHM has been ran hardest and it still does its job. The RRA and PSA 18" Wylde chambered rifles have been the most accurate with a slight nod to the PSA (under .50" 5 shot groups with roll-my-own, consistently).

My current loaners/budget guns are S&W Sports and PSA models that I assemble.

Hard to get past PSA pricing and quality. Their shipping stinks (high pricing that doesn't make sense) and their CS reps aren't exactly looking to please although cordial.
 
Radical, at least, uses good parts. They use Fail-Zero bolt carrier groups, so you won't run into staking issues there. Where you save money with them is they make their excellent free-float handguard in-house. That, in my opinion, is what differentiates them from other manufacturers. All the other budget manufacturers I've seen have non-free-float handguards. Because of this, there's nothing inherently crippled about these guns, and they make a far more pleasant platform to build off of than, say, PSA, because everything is done right from the start. I don't know what barrels they use (though they are a nice 1:7" twist rate), and I haven't yet gotten a proper accuracy test with my rifle. But because everything else is good quality and set up in a sane way, I believe the platform has far more build potential than the other budget brands. They sell additional rail segments for their handguard at a low price, and it's partially compatible with Magpul MOE stuff and has built-in holes for QD sling swivels. There's just nothing to dislike about it.
 
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The Bear Creek guns are like $550 new I think. None of the budget ARs are necessarily bad, I just think there are better options for the money. As for the "cheap" rifles and uppers, I've been impressed by Hardened Arms, Palmetto State Armory premium stuff, Radical Firearms, DelTon, and Smith and Wesson. This is based on working on them, and looking at fit, finish, parts quality, specs, and all around value.

The problem with chamberings is that manufacturers don't all follow the same standards in tolerances, and lesser manufacturers let chambers out of the factory that aren't exactly what they wanted to make. This makes the "Wylde" chambering meaningless unless it's done by a company like Spike's, Noveske, or Daniel Defense.
Really? That's something else I didn't know. I'm learning something new every day! So I guess it's a good thing I didn't get duped by that dealer into getting that Bear Creek gun that was used and beat up for $700. I'd be kicking myself right now. Instead of being what I thought might have been the best deal in the store may very well have been the worse deal there.
 
One thing to keep in mind about PSA is that they are close to the FN facility and get deals on FNs contract over run components.

FN is, of course, about as good as it gets.
 
One thing to keep in mind about PSA is that they are close to the FN facility and get deals on FNs contract over run components.

FN is, of course, about as good as it gets.
That may be, but they also don't tell you what they're putting in your individual gun. You're getting a tossup every time. You may get an FN barrel one time, and another time they may not have any so they throw on a generic.

Compare this:

http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...om-keymod-lightweight-upper-no-bcg-or-ch.html

To this:

http://www.radicalfirearms.com/product-p/fu16-5.56m4-12fgs.htm

The PSA option you still have to add a bolt to (around $100 for a good one). The Radical Firearms upper is complete and, though it doesn't come with the extra rails, they're around $8 apiece and you only need to attach sections where you want.

I will attest to that the Radical Firearms handguard is very comfortable to hold on to due to its smooth surface. The keymod or a permanently railed solution wouldn't be quite as kind to your hands.
 
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The typical AR owner only puts a few hundred rds downrange a year plinking probably. For that, any name brand AR will do and that is why it is hard to find much bad press about any of them.

For a high round count carbine course or serious training sessions (a few hundred rds per session really heating the gun up), lower quality materials and QC/QA issues will show up at a higher rate on the lower end guns.

An $800-900 Colt 6920 can handle general combat training and use for a decent service life if kept properly lubed and cleaned minimally. Lower quality then that and something is being given up somewhere and it may or may not ever manifest itself depending on round count and frequency. Higher cost/quality then that probably isn't needed from a pure reliability standpoint, but for more accuracy, better features etc.

I put one together from a CMMG lower with a RRA LPK, LMT MRP upper and BCM BCG. It has seen about 3k rounds with nearly 1k of them at a carbine course all without either cleaning or any malfunctions.

I finally broke down and cleaned it a few weeks ago, everything looked good.
 
The typical AR owner only puts a few hundred rds downrange a year plinking probably. For that, any name brand AR will do and that is why it is hard to find much bad press about any of them.

For a high round count carbine course or serious training sessions (a few hundred rds per session really heating the gun up), lower quality materials and QC/QA issues will show up at a higher rate on the lower end guns.

Thank you for telling me about this! I'm nowhere near being a heavy AR user, so it's sounding like a "budget AR" might work for me just fine. The LGS here has a couple of Del-ton rifles in the sub-$600 range I might look into.
 
The S&W M&P Sport II would be a better value as would mating an on-sale complete lower from PSA with an on-sale upper from their "premium" line. Better quality for just a little more cost.

This upper has the FN barrel: http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...ium-upper-without-bcg-or-charging-handle.html

Or this one with BCG and charging handle, better handguard: http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...1-7-moe-blk-with-bcg-and-charging-handle.html

This lower: http://palmettostatearmory.com/complete-psa-ar15-lower-moe-edition-black.html

You are at $660 complete minus Magpul MBUIS rear sight ($55), shipping, and transfer fee on the lower (about $750-$775 all in). The material quality and QA/QC on the "premium" upper is going to be right up there with the better brands claiming to be "mil-spec" (or close to it) and with upgraded Magpul furniture and mid-length gas system for extra credit. I'd run this combo hard and expect it to do well.

It is up to you if the extra quality and knowing the gun can be run hard if needed is worth the extra $150-$200 or so. No right answer...

The wrong answer would be paying too much for something like a DPMS, RRA etc. at the LGS when a better rifle could have been had for the same price with some shopping around. An $850 on sale Colt or the $700-ish PSA premium upper plus PSA lower combo is a good yardstick to measure other options relative value. Any option that is lower quality had better cost a lot less...like the sub-$600 Del-Ton at your LGS.
 
krimmie:
Although I'm not yet in the market for an AR, your comment about so many home builts available for sale might speak volumes.

For a rifle with such accuracy and other potential, it Always surprises me that this huge number is available in TN on Armslist.
 
I have a 5.56 PSA rifle I put together with a Magpul MOE lower that was on special for an amazing price, and a PSA 16" mid length upper. The barrel is FN, and is the full profile one so it's pretty heavy. I've put a couple hundred rounds through it and then I took it apart and looked it over and it looked really good. I added a Vortex Strikefire II red/green dot scope I got on a Black Friday special ($99), a cheap quad rail handguard that cost about a third of what the expensive ones cost (Can't remember the name). A friend of mine has used them for years with zero issues, so I went with it too. I put a PSA branded aluminum rear folding site that is co-witnessed with the red dot. Total out of pocket on the rifle and toys is about $650. I don't see how I could really do or hope for any better. Now that PSA seems to have their shipping speed cranked up, I will buy there more often.
 
Granted, this is a sample size of one...however, before I knew squat about ARs, I bought a DPMS right before BHO was elected. It was fine for a couple years until I started shooting more and more. After a rather intense outdoor range session (800 rounds or so as I recall), I was cleaning the rifle and noticed one of the 'staked' screws holding the gas key in had worked partially loose.

Screwed it in and sold it. Bought a Colt 6920. I build 'em now too, but never on the cheap.

I wish I would have known a lot more before I just went out and bought one knowing nothing. I'd say before anyone buys, so some research and make an informed decision, lest ye regret it.
 
Granted, this is a sample size of one...however, before I knew squat about ARs, I bought a DPMS right before BHO was elected. It was fine for a couple years until I started shooting more and more. After a rather intense outdoor range session (800 rounds or so as I recall), I was cleaning the rifle and noticed one of the 'staked' screws holding the gas key in had worked partially loose.

Screwed it in and sold it. Bought a Colt 6920. I build 'em now too, but never on the cheap.

I wish I would have known a lot more before I just went out and bought one knowing nothing. I'd say before anyone buys, so some research and make an informed decision, lest ye regret it.
It sounds like your DPMS did pretty well. Nothing's perfect, but I don't see how the performance you got with yours shouldn't be pretty satisfactory.
 
If it's just a plinker that will see light use, you can go with any of the major name brands in the low end market and it will probably be fine... if not it will have a warranty that will take care of you. Just avoid the real bottom of the barrel ones like Bear Creek, Century, Radical Firearms, etc., and the ones with plastic lowers like Omni. If you want to get some better features and quality for the money, buy the upper and lower separately from Palmetto State Armory and pin them together yourself.

If you have serious use in mind, like 2A purposes or home defense, or the kind of training it takes to be prepared for serious uses (1,000 + round classes and several hundred round range sessions on a regular basis), get something that is built to the mil specs or better. Do a little research if you want to know what these specs are. Assume any company that doesn't advertise a particular spec to be cutting corners on that particular feature.

If you know what parts to look for, you can build a fully mil spec rifle from parts and save money... or if you don't want to have to worry about it, you can go with parts or complete rifles from mfg's that don't sell anything subpar, like BCM, Colt, and Daniel Defense.
 
Older Olympic arms or Pac west arms. Same company. Crap parts, cast receivers. They may be better now but I wouldnt use my money to find out. .
 
I'd figure out what I want the rifle to do first. If you just want a range plinker, sometime HD gun, then one of the low priced guns is fine (I don't know cheaper ARs that well, but I'd look at Ruger or S&W first). If you want something better, then I'd look at Colt, BCM, DD, etc.

Honestly though, I cannot see how any company can compete with Colt's current prices. There will be good parts deals that turn into great value home builds or the market may change in the future, but where we are now, it is very hard to beat the Colt 6720 or 6920. Even some of the good options out there will require sights, furniture, etc. (see Aero or BCM OEM at Brownells). With the Colt offerings you get a rifle that is good to go (furniture and BUIS) for $800-900. You can modify if later, but you should shoot it a whole lot first especially if its your first AR.

The Colt is a whole tier above the budget ARs being put forward, and yet is only $150-200 more usually. Colt has good quality parts, non-proprietary parts, and most importantly good QC. Why not spend the $150 and get the standard by which all others are compared, instead of going with a good, but not quite all there carbine? Whats $150/number of years of use?

I will say that finding a S&W or Ruger at $500-550 (which I recently saw) would be VERY hard to pass up, but once you start talking $600-650 you might as well just go $800-875 and get a much better rifle. If the market changes in the future and Colts start going over $1000 once more, I'd start looking budget. But where they are now there is simply no reason not to get a Colt unless you get some good deals on parts and build yourself or money is just so tight that $150 really makes a huge difference.

Edit: The guy taking his budget AR to the range and calling it "just as good" as a Colt, BCM, or Noveske hasn't shot his gun long enough or got super lucky. As to the whole AR being inferior to AK/SKS things, well that is a call one has to make for themselves. In my mind you have two theories: the ammo or the environment is going to cause a misfeed. Guns like the AK, with large ejection ports, are designed for ammo stoppages. Guns like the AR, with small ejection ports, are designed to keep out debris/mud/sand/etc. If you think you will need to clear jams often, go AK. If you think your ammo and maintenance are good, go AR. And by maintenance I mean squirt oil in bolt.
 
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I have a Rock river lower and a cmmg upper with 16" heavy profile barrel. Has run perfectly for about 2000 rounds so far. If I were buying one today, I'd probably just get a colt 6920 and be done with it. The prices are so good right now I feel like j should buy one although I have no need for a second AR.
 
I've noticed when doing searches for opinions in google on different AR rifle brands, it seems that no matter what brand I type in, most people who have it seem to be happy.

I won't talk specific brands at this time, but...

...be sure to get a round count from these folks, and ask if they have had any malfunctions or sub-optimal results at all. Quantify what they are saying. A lot of people will shoot a couple hundred rounds through a rifle in a couple range trips and then years later talk about how they've had it for years and it's been perfect...just as an example.

Now, if you only plan to shoot a couple hundred rounds a year casually plinking at targets at the range, then unload and store it the rest of the time, just get the cheapest thing you can.
 
I'd put Olympic on the list of AR's to avoid. I have one myself and it's fine when it works...it just doesn't work very often. I've never fired a full 30 round magazine through it without some sort of hiccup. I've also noticed that the mag well is slightly out of spec as I have problems getting mags to drop free whether Lancers, P-Mags, GI Spec mags, etc. Some will drop free, others won't. Granted that's probably from variations in the magazines themselves, but still, the Olympic does nothing but choke especially when compared to my Stag and my LWRC.
 
If you're going to shoot a couple hundred rounds a year, expect 3 MOA, and just want a fun gun to shoot once in a while, the major manufacturer basic offerings should all suit you well.

I expect my AR's to be able to go to a week long training class where I may shoot 1200 rounds and just keep it well lubed for the class, no cleaning until after the class is over. I also want it to be capable of shooting thousands of rounds per year at a range with minimal maintenance.

I carry spare parts that break, like bolt, extractor, etc., because stuff that is run hard breaks...

I expect the barrel to last 25K rounds or more and keep 2MOA. I expect the critical parts and components to be mil spec or better, tested to mil specifications.

So what companies to I avoid? Companies that do not meet my expectations.

Easier to say what companies I support (with my dollars)...BCM, Daniels Defense, Colt, Sionics, and a tiny company in San Antonio doing it right...Sons of Liberty Gun Works.

YMMV...


Take Care,

Buzz

Buzz nailed it with this answer!

For me as well, you have to know what you want the rifle to do and how you'll use it. If you're just wanting something to take to the range a few times a year with your buddies and pop off a few boxes for S&G's then any budget buy will likely treat you well. If you then decide to put some nice glass on it and go out expecting to hit the bullseye each shot you'll likely be severely disappointed / frustrated with that budget buy.

Another option I'd suggest looking into is building your own. There's not a factory rifle anywhere that has exactly what I want on it, but I can (and have) custom build exactly what I want with the exact components I want.

A good rule of thumb is always "you get what you pay for."
 
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