Forget the 5 shot self defense!

Don't we already have this thread running?
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=805501

Sorry, but I don't see magazine capacity being my big concern in this senario. If i'm up against an opponent with a 30 round semi-auto rifle, my first shot had better be a good solid hit or my odds of survival are really toast. The guy with the rifle has a far easier weapon to shoot fast and accurately. You have no cover unless you are lucky enough to have some at least 1/2 inch steel or a nice solid cinder block wall to hide behind. So, if it comes to a matter of mag capacity, you are likely toast. You can get a tritium front sight on some 5 shot guns and that is all you really need. I would fear having a 5 shot capacity far worse facing multiple adversaries than the one you describe.

I agree with couldbeanyone, I often find it amusing when folks here will point to a scenario that really doesn't support their conclusion. IMHO this would be the one time a Thompson Center Contender would have made a near perfect CCW.

Aren't we already addressing this in like two or three other threads?

MedWheeler said:

Aren't we already addressing this in like two or three other threads?

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Seems like weekly in some variation or another.

No. I feel as if my PM (Pistolet Makarova) would have been fine in that situation. I would have gotten as close as I could and gone for a head shot. Like someone else mentioned, going up against someone with a carbine, you'd better make the first shot or two count. With my PM, which holds 8+1, I don't believe I'd be at much of a disadvantage vs any other defensive handgun.

Old Guy said:

@SUBJ: Forget the 5 shot self defense!

The Orlando Club PULSE, says it all.

If you had ignored all the Suggestions/Rules/Regulations, and entered the club at Midnight carrying concealed?

Would you think anything less than a Glock 19, full with 16 rounds of your favorite 9mm hollow points, plus an extra G17 magazine would have been the least that would have you floated your boat! ...

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Actually, no, I am confident with both my ability with and the capabilities of my 5-shot Bulldog .44s.

If I can get a clear shot with the Bulldog, it is almost over. I do not feel that I need to be carrying (or shooting) dozens of rounds to end such a scenario.

O'course, if I find myself in such a situation, after Concealment/Cover(preferably) and Assessment, my next step is Escape if that is open to me.

Proximity and opportunity seems more telling than capacity. Noticing the guy while standing next to him seems to present better opportunity for successful resistance than spotting him from thirty feet away. Nonetheless, we once again see what happens when the armed and violent confronts the unarmed and peaceful.

A good shot, with the ability to drop your blood pressure and combat breathing.

In a dark club with flashing lights, hundreds of people running around screaming in panic.

Twice a year practice at the range ain't gonna cut the mustard.

I don't care how much ammo I'm toting, I ain't going clubbing and usually by the time it gets dark I'm ensconced at the homestead.

UpperAtmosphere said:

A good shot, with the ability to drop your blood pressure and combat breathing.

In a dark club with flashing lights, hundreds of people running around screaming in panic.

Twice a year practice at the range ain't gonna cut the mustard.

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The reality is there is no practice that would suffice for that type of scenario. If anyone tried to hit the killer, he'd be likely to hit bystanders. The only tactic that would work is to get behind the shooter unnoticed & do a point-blank shot to the head.

You are in a nightclub. This means LOUD pounding music, bright flashing and strobing lights. They may not have even HEARD the shooter for some time. Last time I was in a "nightclub" I had to leave after 10 minutes with a throbbing headache. Yeah, I'm too old, I get it.
So, regardless of what gun you are carrying, you have to overcome some massive obstacles of 1), realizing there IS a problem, 2) locating the source, 3) trying to get a shot through the panicked crowd and 4), keeping sights aligned in all this chaos, regardless of what type they are. Yes, night sights might have helped, but inside a randomly pulsating lit building, the will probably be as hard to see as any other sights. A really bright laser might have been the best bet, but if there were any smoke machines on, or heavy smoke in the air, it would have been an excellent arrow pointing right at you. Remember that 90% of the people around have been drinking all night long and cannot be expected to make rational decisions stone cold sober in this situation - what luck will you have trying to get them out of the line of fire while you try to engage?
I find it difficult to think of a more negative environment for a defensive shooting. However, I will hold to my last breath that it would have been FAR better had there been a CCW holder who had been in position to engage and neutralize the threat. Even engaging the threat might have changed his mind, like most cowards confronted by victims who refuse to be victims, but holy moley, what a stacked deck.

I don't care how much ammo I'm toting, I ain't going clubbing, and usually by the time it gets dark I'm ensconced at the homestead.

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If only everyone lived like that. Nothing good happens in the wee hours of the morning.

When it comes to "spray and pray," the person with the AR-15 (or clone) is gonna win.

The great pistolero, Bill Jordan, always said, "You can't miss fast enough to win a gun fight."

Accuracy counts above all else.

One or two bullets from a five or six shot .38 Spec., into a vital spot on the murderer, beats spraying 20 or so rounds of 9mm all over the place.

My opinion.

L.W.

And of course this whole conversation circles back to the old suggestion that I'm going to be super accurate with my .38 but you won't be very accurate with your spray-n-pray 9mm, and that bad guy with his AR-15 is gonna be lucky to hit the building from the inside!

Which is why these conversations get so goofy.

You may be calm, cool, and dead-eyed with your high-cap 9mm. I may find it hard to shoot my .38 snubby all that well. Both of us are going to be adrenaline-dumping, pulse pounding, hands sweating and shaking, possibly bleeding or otherwise injured, surrounded by a panicked crowd jostling and slamming into us, in the dark, in deafening noise, terrified, and generally not in our best form.

Meanwhile Mr. bad guy is in control, doing what he wants to do, and already into the swing of his terrible actions. If anyone's going to make a cool, dispassionate, accurate shot under those circumstances, my money's on HIM.

Maybe we can set up an ambush and take him at close range. Maybe we can find some cover and try to hit him when he's looking at someone else. More ammo is never a hindrance unless you're drowning or on fire, but how much of it you might get to use is an ugly question.

There is the possibility that our first few MISSED (or marginal hit) shots may still persuade him to move, take cover, or otherwise pause in his actions. If so, that's good, but I'd rather not be running out of ammo when he gets his bearings and figures out who's resisting.


Truth is, though, we can only carry what we CAN and WILL carry. And that's never going to be a comfortable amount for facing this kind of threat.

Fortunately, the odds of meeting this guy are still so small as to be practically incalculable. If I do, I'm going to have to deal with that with my normal carry gear.

I think I would rather have a Jennings .25 than a cell phone (even if it only fired once), if I were one of the folks that were inside or a few hours making one of the 600+ calls to 911, before police came in.

The one advantage a CCW holder has is that the perp will not be expecting anyone to shoot back. However your first shot had better hit something that causes the shooter to leak.

Until you have been in that situation, it doesn't matter how much range time you have or how accurate you are shooting at a static target on a static range. It means very VERY little. Best you can hope for is practicing sight picture and trigger discipline.

Chances are, I'd be one of the ones sprinting for the exit since I'm not in the habit of bringing a pistol out drinking and partying.

A packed nightclub is a difficult environment to successfully concealed carry in, and especially if things get touchy feely.

kozak.... that's actually not exactly so and it's why I carried a medium sized 9mm, in later years a 40 cal Sig, on my ankle while off-duty (and in a lot of places I probably shouldn't have been in all those years ago). No matter how "touchy-feely" all your companions at the bar are they're not likely to feel up your ankle....

That said, as always tactics are more important than weaponry when things get dangerous. Me, I'd just do my best to survive and that's the thing you'd find tough to do - even if armed and trained - but caught in a very bad situation where identifying your target would be very difficult (understatement).....

I've already mentioned it but any place that serves the public (whether liquor is involved or not) needs to be inspected regularly to verify it has working fire exits - and any establishment not in compliance should get strict enforcement - whether it's a church, a school, any other public building - or just a night club... From what has been said publicly about that shooting site - it was a death trap, period, if you needed to leave in a hurry because of a shooter, a fire, or any other life threatening event...

Meanwhile Mr. bad guy is in control, doing what he wants to do, and already into the swing of his terrible actions. If anyone's going to make a cool, dispassionate, accurate shot under those circumstances, my money's on HIM.

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An often overlooked and extremely valid point.

kozak6 said:

Chances are, I'd be one of the ones sprinting for the exit since I'm not in the habit of bringing a pistol out drinking and partying.

A packed nightclub is a difficult environment to successfully concealed carry in, and especially if things get touchy feely.

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Both valid points.

shafter said:

If only everyone lived like that. Nothing good happens in the wee hours of the morning.

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Okay...sure...but who says terrorists or random psychopaths only go on a rampage in the wee hours of the morning?

Leanwolf said:

When it comes to "spray and pray," the person with the AR-15 (or clone) is gonna win.

The great pistolero, Bill Jordan, always said, "You can't miss fast enough to win a gun fight."

Accuracy counts above all else.

One or two bullets from a five or six shot .38 Spec., into a vital spot on the murderer, beats spraying 20 or so rounds of 9mm all over the place.

My opinion.

L.W.

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I just have one question


What in the heck are you talking about?

Why are you talking about spray and pray?

I...I just don't follow.