Rounds through .223 AR before cleaning

Status
Not open for further replies.

Poper

Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Messages
2,833
Location
Semi-Free State of Arizona
I have had Remington semi-auto rifles in 6mm Remington and .30-06 and a Browning BAR in .300WSM and I have found myself not to be a fan of semi-autos a couple of reasons:
1) They tend to be very dirty and difficult to clean
2) As a reloader and handloader, I do not like chasing my brass

In a direct impingement AR, is there a limit to the number of rounds you can expect to fire before having functioning issues? Is there a periodical/round count recommended between cleaning the action of an AR?

Just curious.
 
In a direct impingement AR, is there a limit to the number of rounds you can expect to fire before having functioning issues? Is there a periodical/round count recommended between cleaning the action of an AR?
There is no set number I am aware of but how quickly the gas system becomes inoperable or unreliable is a function of several things including the ammunition. Typical day at the range I may run a few hundred rounds downrange. Following the day's shooting I clean the rifle and that includes the gas system. The same is true of all of my rifles so the AR guns are no exceptions. Anyway as to a magic number? None I am aware of.

Ron
 
Some folks like to clean after every session, even if it's only 1 or 2 mags, while others will go hundreds of rounds with just the occasional spritz of lube. It really is personal preference. I think that with the quality of AR's today, it would function fine for thousands of rounds as long as it was well lubed before it "needed" to be cleaned. Personally, my OCD won't let me get past a few hundred rounds without a good scrubbing.

There are a lot of very in depth threads on this over at ar15.com if you want to dig deep!
 
A well-built AR will run pretty much indefinitely without being cleaned, so long as you keep it lubricated. All the friction surfaces need lubrication to move carbon and buildup out of the way, but if you look at a rifle with a few thousand round through it, friction areas will be shiny despite the piles of carbon everywhere else.

I take a look at the bolt every thousand rounds or so, but I don't*actually clean them until they're just too disgusting to share a safe with other things.
 
It also depends on the quality of components used. And, it seems a bit of luck.

I got a FailZero bcg that is designed to run lube free and it has never let me down (even though I lightly lube it). I also have a chromed bcg that runs as just as well, so far. Gone at least 800 rounds through each with no issues before I cleaned them.

Carbon comes off the FailZero easier than my others. Cousin has a generic copy of the FailZero from AIM Surplus and loves it.




.
 
Generally, I'll clean upon purchase and prior to use. I'll go 600 to 700 rounds without cleaning, but applying lube as needed.

That's just me.

An interesting read... Google "pat rogers filthy 14" The use that BCM rifle goes through without cleaning is crazy.
 
I am running milspec stock parts and clean once, maybe twice a year. Sometimes that may be 800-1000 rounds.
This!

The bolt seems to get crudded up the easiest and could use a good cleaning once a year or so. While I'm at it I usually clean the barrel, which doesn't really need it that often.
 
Being a former mil guy, the "right" answer is clean your rifle after you fire it. If you don't want to do that, on the AR the 2 most important things to prevent malfunctions:
1. at least clean the chamber
2. lube the bolt with a GREASE. Some people like frog lube. I like auto zone white lithium grease. Won't evaporate or fly out of the bolt when firing. Periodically, wipe off after use with most of the carbon, apply fresh grease. The grease wipe/applies easy & quick.
 
I clean and oil my AR after every time I shoot it. Even if I only shoot a mag. I've never had any problems with my gun, and it's a cheap build. Eats everything I feed it, even Tula (which makes it dirtier, but I clean it everytime anyway so it's no big deal) I have a buddy who rarely cleans his AR, and has a few problems with it but it's hard to say if it's because he runs it dirty or because the gun just has problems. If I don't clean my guns after shooting them I go crazy. Drives me nuts. They're easy guns to clean and I think it's worth the 15 mins to clean it after every time shooting it.
 
Look up "filthy 14" already mentioned above. With regular oiling you don't actually NEED to clean.

I tend to clean every couple of range visits, or after a single extended firing session. But this is my personal preference, not a need.
 
I've never had any AR jam on me due to being dirty. Granted when I'm done I clean them. I shoot as much or as little as I want.

Decent parts, broken in, with good regular maintenance run forever.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
 
Being brand-new to the AR world (S&W M&P .223), a youngish guy who is in the Marine Reserves (and a gun shop) told me that CLP is enough for operating an AR.
A middle-aged coworker claims that usiing grease, i.e. B. Casey Gun Grease or reddish Mobil Grease can allow this to drip down into the AR's trigger group.

Does CLP reduce friction on the bolt to an adequate degree?
 
The reality is, unless you expect to regularly shoot 500-1000 rounds per session I wouldn't worry about it. An AR is easy to field strip and clean and there is no excuse not to clean it unless you are trying to make a point. A firearm should be maintained like any other relatively expensive tool that you expect to perform well. Many have the same attitude about their car that have about their firearms: why clean it when it will just get dirty again? Those people are also the same people that don't change the air filter on their house or on their car. Sure it will probably still work, but if you want to reduce the risk of failure you will maintain it by cleaning it in reasonable intervals and lubricating often. I prefer to clean after every use. Many claim that this actually causes wear and tear but the truth is if you do it often and right it will not deteriorate your firearms. If you only shot a couple of magazines you don't have to scrub it down with bronze brushes. Quickly going over the bolt with a nylon brush, and wiping down the bore and muzzle device is all you really need for only shooting a few magazines full. If the bore is still dull then maybe run a nylon brush down the barrel with some solvent. You can literally do this all day long thousands of times and you'll will cause no wear. You only need to really do a deep clean when you've shot thousands of rounds.

Not much you can do about hunting down brass. A properly tuned AR will be pretty consistent. You can also try a brass catcher but they are kind of a pain. If it's really a big deal then stick to the bolt action.
 
Last edited:
Shooting supressed increases the need to clean exponentially. I took mine outside and hosed it off. Used a big nylon brush to knock off the hurky stuff. Blew the gun soot out of my nose. Cabon/oil shellec took a bit of scrubbing to get it off the heat shields. Ed's Red did a great job cleaning it up. All that after only 150 rounds...

See this thread...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=580855&highlight=thunderbeast
 
Filthy 14 is a carbine class loaner rifle the instructor takes when student guns fail to function. It's been documented to have over 60K rounds thru it, with only two "cleanings" that included a rod down the bore. All other times it was lubed and wiped down only.

Like the pictured rifle above the weapon has had bolt lug failure and the extractor replaced, so the real issue isn't how often you need to clean it, it's about paying attention to the lugs when you do to find cracks.

The military cleans daily with far less than 300 rounds thru the weapon - a basic load - and sticks to that regimen to remove environmental contamination. It's what gets sloshed or ground onto the weapon that causes issues with magazines and ammo, not the gas residue. Shotgunning it and wiping it down removes the contamination. And we are talking about a battle rifle with nearly concealed action and a covered ejection port. The Garand and M14 have been tested side by side and are capable of jamming on the first round due to the exposed action. The AR/M16 does a lot better than many are willing to admit, but over 25 million prior service aren't clamoring about it. They spend money to buy their own because Uncle Sam won't let them have an issue rifle.

There are actually many safety of use messages based on cleaning the M16 wrong, using improper materials, jamming rods down the muzzle, etc. It's done in the service anyway and yet we never seem to suggest that maybe cleaning it too much is the real issue - when it is. It's possible with some rifles to rotate the bolt and assemble with the extractor 180 off, lose the small parts, jam paper products into the bore, scratch the muzzle crown, tinker with the trigger parts attempting to improve it, etc. We'd be better off leaving well enough alone.

Lube it and wipe it down. Target shooters don't rod their bores frequently, there's a standard to examine.
 
I used to be a "clean after every use" guy, but laziness took over, and I would typically run several hundred rounds between cleanings. I just recently cleaned an AR that I put together back in December, and only then because it was a nice day out and I could sit on my deck cleaning guns while still enjoying some fresh air. I've never had an AR malfunction due to lack of cleaning. Can't say the same for some semi-auto handguns.
 
There are actually many safety of use messages based on cleaning the M16 wrong, using improper materials, jamming rods down the muzzle, etc. It's done in the service anyway and yet we never seem to suggest that maybe cleaning it too much is the real issue - when it is. It's possible with some rifles to rotate the bolt and assemble with the extractor 180 off, lose the small parts, jam paper products into the bore, scratch the muzzle crown, tinker with the trigger parts attempting to improve it, etc. We'd be better off leaving well enough alone.

I respectfully disagree. Someone not knowing how to service their firearm properly is a stand alone issue. Nobody would say stop changing the oil in your car because you risk not putting the correct oil back in or you might leave the drain plug out. If people don't want to clean their firearm I could care less, but teaching people not to do it ridiculous unless we are stalking about very specific use cases such as target shooting in which case the barrel condition is closely monitored.

Just learn how to do it right, give it a cleaning commensurate to the amount of use (don't constantly scrub it down with metal tools), use the proper tools, get nylon brushes, use patches liberally, nonmetallic cleaning rods, use a bore guide, clean the barrel from the correct end whenever possible, use the correct solvents and lubrication). It's really not rocket science. You can clean your gun all day long with patches and nylon brushes and you will not degrade the condition.
 
Originally posted by ColoradoMinuteMan
"The reality is, unless you expect to regularly shoot 500-1000 rounds per session I wouldn't worry about it. An AR is easy to field strip and clean and there is no excuse not to clean it unless you are trying to make a point. A firearm should be maintained like any other relatively expensive tool that you expect to perform well. Many have the same attitude about their car that have about their firearms: why clean it when it will just get dirty again? Those people are also the same people that don't change the air filter on their house or on their car. Sure it will probably still work, but if you want to reduce the risk of failure you will maintain it by cleaning it in reasonable intervals and lubricating often. I prefer to clean after every use. Many claim that this actually causes wear and tear but the truth is if you do it often and right it will not deteriorate your firearms. If you only shot a couple of magazines you don't have to scrub it down with bronze brushes. Quickly going over the bolt with a nylon brush, and wiping down the bore and muzzle device is all you really need for only shooting a few magazines full. If the bore is still dull then maybe run a nylon brush down the barrel with some solvent. You can literally do this all day long thousands of times and you'll will cause no wear. You only need to really do a deep clean when you've shot thousands of rounds."

This has been my regular practice since I started shooting, and I see no reason to change. If you make it dirty, clean it.
 
Last edited:
Quite a bit of conflicting information regarding frequency and intensity of cleaning an AR.

An AR should be operated/used with liberal lubrication to help keep contaminants out of tightly toleranced parts, yes?

AR's are generally "run wet" and clean when malfunctions become frequent?

Again, I am by no means an expert or even a novice where A R's are concerned, but doesn't the direct impingement system bleed off the used gas for operating the mechanism through the action/bolt group?
 
The extreme on one side is to thoroughly clean after every outing. The other extreme is to go thousands of rounds without cleaning, only lube. (Extreme indicating opposite ends of the spectrum in this case)

Admittedly, I'm not an AR expert. (Nor am I one in any other field lol) However, the general consensus among most AR shooters I know personally is that an AR needs to be "wet" to run reliably but not necessarily clean. They, and myself, tend to fall in between the two aforementioned ends of the cleaning spectrum. Personally, I keep it well lubed with a good cleaning every 700 or so rounds. Even when it isn't "clean" it's really not all that filthy. And reliability has not been an issue to this point.

There's one other aspect about cleaning for me. I think I could stretch the cleaning interval further without impacting reliability. However, I like to take the the opportunity to visually inspect the components for wear, and I figure inspecting as I clean is as good a time as any. I find that I enjoy it as well.

I think you've got plenty of examples of people successfully running ARs on both ends of this issue. Perhaps it boils down to what you prefer.
 
Quite a bit of conflicting information regarding frequency and intensity of cleaning an AR.

An AR should be operated/used with liberal lubrication to help keep contaminants out of tightly toleranced parts, yes?

AR's are generally "run wet" and clean when malfunctions become frequent?

Again, I am by no means an expert or even a novice where A R's are concerned, but doesn't the direct impingement system bleed off the used gas for operating the mechanism through the action/bolt group?

To answer your last point first: Yes, but it doesn't really seem to matter in practice. ARs don't fail because of powder fouling or baked on carbon, they fail because they get dry.

I help out at a local rifle sight in and ARs are pretty popular. One of the failures I frequently see is short stroking, where the bolt fails to go fully back and/or fails to return to battery. That problem is usually cured just by lubricating the bolt and bolt carrier.

Run it wet, clean according to environmental conditions (or when you're bored), and just shoot it.

BSW
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top