Mis-fires and brass...

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gonoles_1980

gonoles_1980

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First off, it's really the gun, I have a 38spl Charter Arm's undercover. It typically has a 1-2% mis-fire rate. Worse if I use CCI primers and not Winchester primaries. I had way too many mis-fire's this weekend, all fired on the 2nd hit, but we're talking about 15 out of a box of 50. I noticed I had a lot of BVAC cases, which I find don't have a good feel when priming them. I'm just wonder if there is something about the primer hole in this case that will make a prissy gun even more prissy.

I could fire these easily in my ruger 357 snubbie, so it's the gun, not the load. Really hate to dump the gun, but I may just have to buy a new 38. I'm wondering if it's worth getting a new firing pin spring.

Wasn't sure the best place to post this since it's a mix of several types of questions.
 
likely just light strikes due to the firearm. If the cylinder will close easily, the primer is seated enough for reliable ignition. You can try a new hammer spring for the gun or softer(federal) primers. Do you have any issues when firing single action?

I have a taurus 66 with many many rounds through it. It has gotten to where one out of every other cylinder will fail to go bang when shooting double action. Single action is no issue. Its a range gun and dont really have much use shooting double action so I wont be bothering with fixing the problem.
 
One thing at a time.

1. CCI primers are the hardest of the domestic brands, and if your firearm has trouble igniting other brands, it will be exacerbated by the use of CCI's

2. Primer seating. Primers need to be seated fully to set the anvil into the primer pellet. This means solidly against the bottom of the primer pocket. If you look at a new primer, you'll notice the legs of the anvil sit slightly above the edges of the cup. Those legs need to be the same level as the cup edges after seating, and the only way to do that is to seat them all the way. I have my primer seaters set so that primers are between -.003" and -.004" below flush (below the bottom of the case). This ensures proper primer seating.

3. Check the hammer spring of the gun, and if it's weak, replace it. Also, make sure the innards are clean and that gunk isn't slowing the hammer fall.

4. Check to make sure there's enough firing pin length to fully dent the primer cup. Firing pins get worn, and some are soft.

If the primers are going off with a second hit, then I suspect primer seating as being the main culprit, combined with hard primers. Federal primers are the easiest to set off, so if you're able to obtain some of those, give them a try, but make sure you seat them fully, no matter what brand you use.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
I will try the single action and see if that has different results. I'm just about ready to sell this gun and get a different 38 snubbie. I pretty positive it's the firing pin spring, not sure how easy that is to replace, or what it would cost from a gun smith. It's a cheap gun and I really don't want to spend more on it. I was just surprised, because ever since I went to the winchester primers, it's only been a minor issue. This was the first time I had this bad.
 
Replace the hammer spring. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=563715
A test for a Smith and Wesson revolver, model 28, 357mag., may work on other guns also<> Gun empty.
Dryfire gun and hold trigger fully to rear.
Cock hammer with thumb.
Hook a weight around the hammer (for example 3 1/2 LB minimum weight for 357).
The hammer must not move rearward when the gun is lifted.
The hammer should lift 3 1/2 lbs without going into the cocked position.
Click to expand...
Maybe try a test like this. A spring cost $10 at one place, plus shipping. :eek:
 
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Don't dump the revolver for what sounds like a simple and easily fixed problem. Even if you have to have the work done for you it won't cost a lot. Charter Arms revolvers may not cost a lot but they are good guns. Lots if good advice above, good luck...
 
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I would guess primer setting depth. Especially since they were firing on second strike. First strike sets primer to proper depth, next strike ignites primer.
 
for years iv'e read that CCI primers are the hardest,etc etc. My cowboy guns are fairly lightly sprung,and have never failed to ignite a CCi primer, same for my carbine, all 45colt caliber.

I too suspect light primer seating, don't slam them in but don't baby them either. I lean into the press handle for at least a 2 count to fully seat them.
 
What happens when you shoot factory ammo? If it is reliable with factory, it is most likely your reloads. If not, get the gun checked.
 
Factory ammo is about 1-2% like I normally get using Winchester primaries. I did take the gun to a gunsmith, he said someone had loosened the firing pin spring. The gun was used when I got it years ago. Need to find a new gunsmith, this one retired.

Any round that misfires will fire fine in my 357 snubbie. I've shot a round of the reloads through it, zero mis-fires. Also in mine or my wife's other guns, never have any issues with the reloads.

I've watched a few video's and it looks like it's not a horrible task to replace the spring for $10. I may give it a try. First I want to try the single action.
 
I bought two in a row brand new Charter Undercovers in the early years when they first came along.

Neither gun was at all reliable in DA and there was nothing you could do about it.

Geometry of the lock-work was just not right!!

rc
 
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96% of failures to fire for a newer reloader is improper primer seating. Primers should be seated all the way to the bottom of the primer pocket. Forget "below flush measurements" just make sure the primers aren't above the case head and shove them all the way down...

I've only had problems with primers once (if you don't count my beginning with a Lee Loader popping primers). I had a striker fired 9mm that would not fire Winchester primers reliably. It worked well with Wolf, Remington and CCI primed rounds and the Winchester primed rounds worked in other guns. After much experimenting, I found I had to "preload" the Winchester primers to get 100% reliability in that gun. All other primers worked, just Winchester primers failed.
 
I want to echo the statement that since all cartridges fired on the second strike, the primers were not seated properly.
 
I could put the bullets in my Ruger LCR357 and they all fire on first strike. The primers in the Charter Arms, don't always fire on the 2nd strike, but that is more rare. They will fire in the LCR 357. I have zero mis-fires in my 357s, the LCR 357 and a Bisley Ruger Vaquero when my wife shoots 38's from it. I don't discount the a seating issue for the Charter Arms, since I notice that most of the mis-fires have come in batches where I have the BVAC cases, the primers feel like they just don't push in like the other cases.

I am going to try a few experiments.

1. Try Single Action, see if that makes a difference.
2. Remove all rounds with BVAC cases and see what happens.
3. Run through a few rounds with the same case stamps, to see if it could be a case.
4. Try only BVAC cases.

Also, since I don't want to overlook every possibility. I use a lee hand primer to prime all my rounds. What could I be doing that would cause the 38 spl brass not be pushed in all the way? I check my primers they all look like none are above the base. Anything else I can look for or do differently?

The mis-fire issue is specific to the Charter Arms 38spl, undercover. It occurs with factory loads and reloads. With reloads, it occurs the same as factory loads when using WSP primers. Frequency increases with CCI primers. I have not tried Federal primers, I didn't think you were suppose to use them in a hand primer. I load for two 357's, a .380, .9mm, 44spl and 44mag and have zero mis-fires in those guns.

Next round of shooting will be next Friday, I will try no BVAC cases to do one test.

After all this, I may just get brave and try replacing the firing pin spring, it's only $10.
 
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I wouldn't throw away money on a cheaply-made, poor-quality gun like a Charter Arms. When there is a substantial price difference between firearms, there is a good reason. As you noted, Ruger guns are high quality.

Usually, people who say "I love my Charter Arms, Hi Point, Jennings, etc. are willing to overlook malfunctions because they like the price.
 
A friend had a Charter Undercover years ago...and man, that thing was little! His wife loved carrying it just because of the tiny size plus the fact that they didn't have a fortune invested in it should it ever be confiscated as evidence after a SD shooting.

But...I seem to remember that it DID light-strike in DA and actually was asked to 'fix' it. The hammer didn't get pulled all the way to the rear in DA and so was lacking some main spring hit in that mode. It's been a LONG time, but I think I put in a new trigger lever (or whatever you call the hand that contacts and pulls back the hammer or we might have welded up the tip to make it longer) and fitted it as long as possible so the DA would almost have as much hammerfall as the SA. This did the trick.:)

The other way is to just increase the hammer spring until it fires reliably in DA and call it good. Of course...this will make the trigger pull heavier...but there's few other ways around the problem and the friends wife was adamant that I NOT increase her pull weight! So lengthening the stroke was chosen and it did work fine.
 
RecoilRob said:
A friend had a Charter Undercover years ago...and man, that thing was little! His wife loved carrying it just because of the tiny size plus the fact that they didn't have a fortune invested in it should it ever be confiscated as evidence after a SD shooting.

But...I seem to remember that it DID light-strike in DA and actually was asked to 'fix' it. The hammer didn't get pulled all the way to the rear in DA and so was lacking some main spring hit in that mode. It's been a LONG time, but I think I put in a new trigger lever (or whatever you call the hand that contacts and pulls back the hammer or we might have welded up the tip to make it longer) and fitted it as long as possible so the DA would almost have as much hammerfall as the SA. This did the trick.:)

The other way is to just increase the hammer spring until it fires reliably in DA and call it good. Of course...this will make the trigger pull heavier...but there's few other ways around the problem and the friends wife was adamant that I NOT increase her pull weight! So lengthening the stroke was chosen and it did work fine.
Click to expand...
Try cleaning out the primer pockets!
 
When you seat the primers, don't go by visual. You should be able to feel the primer bottom out. This might be flush with the case, or a few thousandths below. I am just finishing off a case of Tula SPs without a single misfire. This is the reliability you should be getting. I consider a misfire rate of 1% way below the standard desired.

And I never clean the pockets.
 
I doubt it's the gun.
I have a Charter Arms undercover that does NOT misfire.

If it fires on the 2nd hit, most likely you're not seating the primers deep enough.
The 1st hit is seating it, so the 2nd hit fires.

I hope this idea helps!
 
Tried SA vs DA based on the SA suggestion, still an issue, both times a BVAC case was in the row.

Let's assume it's 100% the hand priming for the pistol. I use the same hand primer for the .380, .9mm, .357, .44spl, .44mag and have zero mis-fires with those those guns (over 10,000 rnds). It occurs only in the Charter Arm's 38spl, typically a BVAC case in the row of 5 that had the mis-fire.

Additional Info:
I can run a box of hand-primed 38's through the LCR-357 and not one will mis-fire. They also also seemed to work fine in my sister-in laws 38 S&W, though only one box has been fired in it when she came to visit.

So is there a different technique for priming 38's than there is for the other caliber's I load? I keep being told it's the way I'm priming, I'm not sure how to prime it differently.

My next test if I ever get over the flu will be a box where I have removed all the BVAC cases and try that theory.
 
I had an "odd" occurance with primers a while back. I have been reloading for over 30 years and know how to seat primers and have not has a misfire I could blame on the primer or how I seated in in many, many years. I got a striker fired 9mm and made up some reloads with Winchester primers. I got 1-2 misfires out of 10 . The same ammo worked in my other 9mm, and all other loads worked fine in my new 9mm, and the gun worked well with factory ammo. I disassembled and thoroughly cleaned the bolt, firing pin, pin channel and every other spring, or part in the firing assembly. Same misfire rate :banghead:

I remembered reading of "sensitizing" ("preloading") primers a while back so I began seating the primers, all the way into the bottom of the pocket, and adding a little "ummph" to preload the primer. Resulting rounds worked 100%.

Again, it was not a high seating problem, not a "bad brass" problem, and not a "bad primer" problem. I have seated primers with a Lee Loader, 3 different hand primers, stock priming methods on 4 presses, and a ram prime. It was just a "quirk" with the combination of Winchester primers (never a problem before in all sizes) and a new "plastic" striker fired 9mm...
 
I will repeat strongly, there is no reason to sell off the revolver for what could be a very simple problem to solve. It is not difficult at all to change the hammer spring and you said it's only $10. Check the brass and your primer installation along with changing the spring before you dump the revolver. Wolff Gun springs has the hammer spring for only $4.29.
https://www.gunsprings.com/index.php
 
MDI thanks for your comments, makes me feel better :).

I have the spring on order ArchAngelCD. As you can tell, I'm trying to everything possible to get the problem resolved. Including not using the brass that "feels different" when I hand prime (which is the BVAC brass, never seems to have that "good feel").

If I have no issue with no "BVAC" cases, I will use that solution, otherwise, it's a new spring.

Looks like the spring isn't that hard to change, found an excellent video online, stripped the gun down pretty far during the last cleaning.

I'd prefer to take this gun when I go fishing over my LCR357.

I appreciate the help from everyone on this, and dealing with the slowness of my experimentation. Sometimes it's hard over a message board. I bet if a few of us sat down during a priming session and spent some time at the range, and strip the gun down the problem would be solved like that :).

Next results will problem be a few weeks, I missed this weeks shooting session, down with the flu :(.
 
Does the cylinder move back and forth, changing the gap between the barrel and cylinder face? . If the cylinder moves forward with the firing pin strike, it may deaden the firing pin blow, causing a misfire. Shim the cylinder .
 
Sorting brass for revolver reloads is easy, you only have to do it once and keep the empties separate. Try reloads without using "BVAC" (?) brass...
 
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