Round Nose FMJ in lever guns ?

I usually go for flat noses in mine fwiw. Round nose SHOULD be better than most others though. I think a pic of the actual bullet would help everyone give better insight.

I have plenty of cast rounded nose bullets with a flat bit on the nose that do very well in tube magazines. I have seen others that were a bit pointy for my liking. Just depends on what you got there!

I have some real pointy 9mm bullets that I would prefer not get used in my tube mags... Low recoil on that 38 load I imagine, but still might make me a bit leery.

I've always used flat point bullets in my lever action for that very reason. I wouldn't bother risking at all even if there are other members on here who say it's not a problem. In the event of a magazine detonation, will you be happy with listening to people on the internet? Although you have not had any problems yet, what happens if you change your load or primer choice? Some primers are more sensitive than others, or I suppose it's more accurate to say some primers have thicker cups than others.

You can still single feed the rounds so at least you won't be wasting the bullets you've bought.

I'd be a little hesitant. Might just be the old time sayings I always remember hearing, but I stick with flat nose of the poly tipped leverevolution bullets.

If your gun kicked like a mule, which it doesn't, I would think no, don't do it. But with the gentile recoil of a 38 Special I doubt that you would have any trouble.

Pull a couple of bullets, remove the powder and then reassemble. Then shoot a live round with the two dummies in the mag. Actually, shoot a number of live rounds and see if there are any indentations on the primers in the dummy rounds.

Probably won't be. Should be safe.

It's not worth the risk. FLAT NOSE

Got a grinder? Knock the noses off to make them a FP and they might exspand also. Murphy isn't one you want to temp. That SOB usually ends up winning.

kyron4 said:

Here's a picture from a web site. Safe or not worth the risk ?

Click to expand...

No, I wouldn't recommend that ammunition UNLESS you are willing to load only two cartridges at a time.
One chambered, one on the magazine

I wouldn't worry about it all. Have you ever tried to set a primer off outside a case?

Hb

ehhhh a little pointy for my liking, but thats just me. Personally I err on the side of caution with stuff like that.

Make a little flat nose on the tip. Just take a few passes on a file/rasp.Voila, easy plinkers with what you got. I would have no hesitation then.

Howdy

With a lever gun, particularly with a light recoiling round like 38 Special, it is not the recoil that could cause a problem with pointy bullets in a tubular magazine. It is the force of the magazine spring slamming the column of rounds back every time one is stripped out of the magazine.

Every time a round is stripped out of the magazine, the spring shoves them all back very fast. This builds up quite a lot of momentum, particularly with heavy 44 or 45 caliber bullets.

I can tell you for a fact that when I run dummy 44-40 rounds through one of my lever guns to test fuction, after once or twice through the gun the bullets start to telescope back into the cases, even with a heavy crimp. That tells me that they are all being shoved back with a lot of force.

Personally, I would never run bullets with a pointed nose, or even a round nose, through one of my lever guns, and I have a lot of lever guns. Here is a photo of the bullet I use for my 44-40 lever gun ammo. The bullet is called the Mav-Dutchman Big Lube bullet. Yes, this bullet is specifically designed for Black Powder, but that does not matter. Look at the size of the Metplat, (the flat front of the bullet) on this bullet. The round on the far right is one of my 44-40 rounds.





For 38 Special lever gun ammo, I use a 125 grain Truncated Cone bullet. The round 2nd from the right in this photo is a 38 Special loaded with a 125 grain Truncated Cone bullet. Nice big Metplat and the cone shape of the bullet makes it feed very well though any lever gun.




It's your gun, but personally, a good price on ammo would not tempt me into running anything but a flat pointed bullet through my lever guns. Again, it's not necessarily the recoil, but how hard are the rounds being slammed back by the magazine spring? In a '92, the spring slams them back pretty hard. I have a couple of original Winchester Model 1892s, and I sure would not run pointy bullets through them.

I agree that it's not worth the risk.

One.
Round.
at.
a.
Time.

OK
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Load the tube magazine?

NOPE.

PLAY IT SAFE!


Back when good ol' Ollie Winchester was developing the Henry Rifle they started also to make ammunition. The original round had a round nose like those in the picture, except they were cast lead (unjacketed). Now, even though the round was a rimfire, the way they manufactured them left priming compound on the base as well, and while testing one early rifle, the recoil caused detonation of a round inside the magazine tube, which in turn set off some other rounds.
The result was spectacular and ruined the rifle's magazine tibe, which in that case meant the barrel as well. Thankfully no one was hurt, but it could have turned out otherwise.
The incident lead to the development of the round called the ''.44 Henry FLAT" .... that should probably be taken as a clue.

I'd use the rounds --- as a SINGLE SHOT.
But I would never load any of my lever actions with those --- and the fact that they're ball ammo (jackets are hard!) further underscores the point.

Scooter22 said:

Got a grinder? Knock the noses off to make them a FP and they might exspand also. Murphy isn't one you want to temp. That SOB usually ends up winning.

Click to expand...

I have to disagree with this strongly. You are going to go past the jacket doing this and, not only are you going to end up with a snoot full of lead dust, you are likely to end up with a separated jacket stuck in your barrel.

I have never heard of nor do I know anyone who has actually heard of a tube detonation in a .357 rifle. If anyone else has, I would be very interested in hearing a first hand account. Personally, I don't think it is possible in a .357. I regularly shoot rn lead bullets in mine but they are not jacketed.

If it bugs you, just chamber 2 at a time like recommended above.

Tommygunn said:

Back when good ol' Ollie Winchester was developing the Henry Rifle they started also to make ammunition. The original round had a round nose like those in the picture, except they were cast lead (unjacketed). Now, even though the round was a rimfire, the way they manufactured them left priming compound on the base as well, and while testing one early rifle, the recoil caused detonation of a round inside the magazine tube, which in turn set off some other rounds.
The result was spectacular and ruined the rifle's magazine tibe, which in that case meant the barrel as well. Thankfully no one was hurt, but it could have turned out otherwise.
The incident lead to the development of the round called the ''.44 Henry FLAT" .... that should probably be taken as a clue.

I'd use the rounds --- as a SINGLE SHOT.
But I would never load any of my lever actions with those --- and the fact that they're ball ammo (jackets are hard!) further underscores the point.

Click to expand...

Coupl'a of things . . .

One, Oliver Winchester was an investor, a shrewd money-man, but not a gunsmith, inventor, or engineer. Other than hiring Benjamin Henry away from Robbins & Lawrence, Winchester had little to do with 'developing' the Henry rifle.

Two, rimfire ammunition was never manufactured in such a way that "...left priming compound on the base as well..."

Three, even if they did leave fulminate on the interior of the case's base, with nothing to squeeze the fulminate against (no 'anvil') hitting the center of the base would not discharge the cartridge.

Four, I cannot find a record of said incident, (doesn't mean it isn't true) but the more likely ammunition for such an occurrence would have been the original "Hunt Rocket Ball" (Patent #5,701) that was designed and used for Hunt's Volition Repeater (1848), and later Horace Smith and Daniel B. Wesson's Volcanic Repeaters (1855-57).

The "Hunt Rocket Ball" was a hollow base bullet with a very deep base hollow. This was packed solid with black powder and fitted with a base cover with a central flash hole and a percussion cap affixed to it. This made the entire bullet a centerfire cartridge, (see picture below, no cap fitted)



The problem with the Hunt Rocket Ball was two fold, 1) the powder charge was small, and it was difficult to mold a deeper cavity into the base of a bullet to make it bigger, and 2) it had a nasty habit of leaving the remnants of the base and cap in the chamber to foul the next loading.

Henry's major contribution to rimfire was the making a rimfire cartridge larger than .22, and improving the drawing process.

Some good opinions in this thread.

So whats a guy to do when reloading for a 25-35 lever gun? For jacketed bullets, the only 117 gr. offering I am aware of is the Hornady 2550. I should have researched the interweb before posting this, but in my nearly 50 years loading for this cartridge I never came across another bullet to use.

I've loaded a few and never had a problem. I don't stuff the mag full with my reloads generally.

I am aware that cast bullets are available, but never tried them. Too late in the game to start that.

Laphroaig

I probably wouldn't worry too much about a light .38. There are quite a few vendors offering round nose 30.30 factory rounds if you look on Midway USA. I've never had any issues with this caliber.

I'm going to test this with primed dummies in a tube dropped from various heights. It seems EXTREMELY unlikely, I'd bet a factory squib is more likely.

HB

I have never heard of nor do I know anyone who has actually heard of a tube detonation in a .357 rifle. If anyone else has, I would be very interested in hearing a first hand account. Personally, I don't think it is possible in a .357. I regularly shoot rn lead bullets in mine but they are not jacketed.

Click to expand...

Howdy Again

Over the years in the CAS world I have heard several accounts of ammunition being set off in the tubular magazine of a lever gun. No, I have not been there to witness it, but such incidents have been recorded on the SASS Wire. No, I cannot specifically recall such incidents with 357 mag ammo, I can recall hearing about several specifically in Uberti 1860 Henry reproduction rifles, and these rifles are only chambered for 45 Colt and 44-40 cartridges.

These incidents have usually happened when the tab of the spring loaded follower has slipped out of the grasp of the shooter when loading, allowing the magazine spring to slam the follower down on a stack of ammo in the magazine. Yes, I can recall reading of several incidences of this happening, usually causing the slot in the magazine where the follower tab rides to fold out when the rounds in the magazine went off. Sometimes the magazine could be bent back into shape with no harm to the rifle, sometimes not and the barrel/magazine assembly were ruined.

For those not familiar with the Henry rifle and its loading procedure, here are a few photos.

This is my 'Iron Framed' Henry. You can see the brass follower tab protruding below the magazine.





In this photo, the follower has been pulled all the way forward, and the barrel sleeve at the front of the barrel has been rotated to open the front of the magazine. The follower is retained by the screw, and about 1/16" of the follower is engaged in the relief between the barrel and magazine, preventing the barrel sleeve from rotating back to its normal position.






Here is the view from the muzzle, showing the opening at the front of the magazine. The magazine spring is compressed and is completely contained at this time in the barrel sleeve. The slot down the magazine that the follower tab rides in is visible in this view.





Another view of the same thing.





The problem can arise because the only thing preventing the barrel sleeve from rotating back in position is about 1/16" of the brass follower, and it would not take much effort to force the barrel sleeve back in position, over riding the captive effect of the follower against the barrel.

For this reason, when loading my Henry I always wrap my left hand completely around the barrel, below the follower, to prevent the follower from going anywhere, should something jostle me or the rifle while I am loading. If the follower were to escape and be allowed to jump down its slot, the magazine spring is under tremendous pressure and will slam the follower down on the stack of rounds in the tube with considerable force. With my hand preventing the follower from going anywhere, it will smack into my hand, and yes it does hurt, but that is better than a ruined barrel. There have also been instances reported where the shooter has carefully reloaded, then once he rotates the barrel sleeve back in position he has let go of the follower tab, allowing the follower to slam down on the stack of rounds, rather than lowering the follower onto the stack in the magazine in a controlled fashion.

Notice that in these instances, it has not been recoil from a fired round which has caused a magazine discharge, it is the force of the magazine spring. Yes, Uberti has attempted to address this situation by installing a small disk of rubber in the follower, but the rubber disk is actually useless. These magazine discharges have occurred with the piece of rubber in place.

This is why I caution that it is not recoil that may be the culprit in a magazine discharge of rounds, the magazine spring is a more likely culprit. I will admit that during normal operation of a lever gun, the magazine spring does not slam the rounds back quite so violently as the follower of a Henry gaining momentum as it accelerates down the magazine if it has been given the freedom to travel most of the way down the tube. But still, every time you work the lever of a lever gun, the magazine spring slams the entire column of rounds in the magazine back the length of one round as a round is stripped out of the magazine by the carrier. There is still considerable force operating, and I prefer to err on the side of safety and will never put anything but flat nosed bullets into one of my lever guns.

I'm going to test this with primed dummies in a tube dropped from various heights. It seems EXTREMELY unlikely, I'd bet a factory squib is more likely.

Click to expand...

Good luck with your experiments. You will have to drop your dummies pretty far down a tube to simulate the energy released by the magazine spring every time a round is stripped out of the magazine. Be sure your dummies have bullets crimped in place so you can simulate the mass of loaded ammunition.

One, Oliver Winchester was an investor, a shrewd money-man, but not a gunsmith, inventor, or engineer. Other than hiring Benjamin Henry away from Robbins & Lawrence, Winchester had little to do with 'developing' the Henry rifle.

Click to expand...

To the contrary, Oliver Winchester had a great deal to do with 'developing' the Henry rifle. As a major stockholder in the Volcanic Repeating Arms Company, it became obvious early on that the 'rocket ball' ammunition of the diminutive Volcanic rifles was woefully under powered, and sales were weak. However with expensive tooling in place, the company had little choice but to sell the stock at hand, mostly at a loss.

It was under Winchester's direction that Henry developed a 44 caliber rimfire round that would be more powerful than the old Rocket Ball ammunition, and it was also under Winchester's direction that Henry scaled up the mechanism of the Volcanic rifles to accommodate the larger round.

As president of the newly formed New Haven Arms Company, with the outbreak of the Civil War, Winchester saw the opportunity to cash in on government contracts for the new rifle, and committed large outlays of cash, much of it his own, to purchasing new tooling for the new rifle. But it took 15 months for the tooling to be manufactured and installed in the factory. It also required another outlay of cash to tool up to manufacture the ammunition in house, the ammunition was not produced elsewhere, and it was not until July 1, 1862 that the Henry rifle and its ammunition were ready for sale. In all of this, Oliver Winchester, who had previous experience getting manufacturing operations off the ground, was the key player.

On November 25, 1862, Winchester admitted that the company had made a mistake in not developing a cartridge with more power than the 26 grain Henry rimfire cartridge. A longer cartridge containing more powder would have been more powerful and would have been capable of more penetration. However a longer cartridge would have required a redesign of the carrier and frame, increased the weight of the rifle, and sales were not what he had hoped they would be to fund these changes. A longer cartridge would also have reduced magazine capacity to 13 or 14, rather than the 15 round capacity with the 44 Henry round. The issue of a more powerful round would not be settled until 1873 with the release of the Winchester Model 1873 rifle and the 44-40 round.

lysanderxiii said:

Coupl'a of things . . .

One, Oliver Winchester was an investor, a shrewd money-man, but not a gunsmith, inventor, or engineer. Other than hiring Benjamin Henry away from Robbins & Lawrence, Winchester had little to do with 'developing' the Henry rifle.

Two, rimfire ammunition was never manufactured in such a way that "...left priming compound on the base as well..."

Three, even if they did leave fulminate on the interior of the case's base, with nothing to squeeze the fulminate against (no 'anvil') hitting the center of the base would not discharge the cartridge.

Four, I cannot find a record of said incident, (doesn't mean it isn't true) but the more likely ammunition for such an occurrence would have been the original "Hunt Rocket Ball" (Patent #5,701) that was designed and used for Hunt's Volition Repeater (1848), and later Horace Smith and Daniel B. Wesson's Volcanic Repeaters (1855-57).

The "Hunt Rocket Ball" was a hollow base bullet with a very deep base hollow. This was packed solid with black powder and fitted with a base cover with a central flash hole and a percussion cap affixed to it. This made the entire bullet a centerfire cartridge, (see picture below, no cap fitted)



The problem with the Hunt Rocket Ball was two fold, 1) the powder charge was small, and it was difficult to mold a deeper cavity into the base of a bullet to make it bigger, and 2) it had a nasty habit of leaving the remnants of the base and cap in the chamber to foul the next loading.

Henry's major contribution to rimfire was the making a rimfire cartridge larger than .22, and improving the drawing process.

Click to expand...

Henry rim fire ammunition has been found that actually did have fuminate of mercury across the base. It may not have been common but it did happen.

The fulminate was a VERY unstable substance, and was mixed wet by Winchester. As it dried it became unstable, and would detonate while being mixed. This would prompt Winchester to devise a safety wall with a mirror arrangement so the mixers would not be hurt or killed if the mixture blew up. Under these circumstances it is possible to detonate a rim fire cartridge in a tube; in fact that it happened is a matter of historical record.

I never said Winchester himself developed the rifle, it simply was not my intent to go into that fine of a detail about a matter concerning this particular topic.

Good luck with your experiments. You will have to drop your dummies pretty far down a tube to simulate the energy released by the magazine spring every time a round is stripped out of the magazine. Be sure your dummies have bullets crimped in place so you can simulate the mass of loaded ammunition.

Click to expand...

It will be even easier to use a spring. I was planning on throwing the tube off a bridge. Will play around with it tonight, I believe I have a spring for a 8rnd shotgun mag sitting around.

HB