Wounded Indianapolis officer confronts law protecting gun sellers

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George Dickel:
I was also surprised that people reading comments above your comment (#11) assumed that every clerk in a shop can easily notice subtle body language/hear everything from every customer.

And maybe a different person helps the suspicious person later, with the telephone ringing constantly.
 
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Frank Ettin and anyone else, about not remembering recent customers......I managed a beer/wine shop and was on the floor most of the time selling. Many, many times when I suggested a wine I would get the response "well, you've never steered me wrong before". I walked away muttering "I've never seen this person before in my life". I claim to never forget a face, however in retail, I guess I did, to my amazement. Just sayin.
 
Frank Ettin said:
All the usual "tin-foil hat" claims for which no one supplies any substantial evidence. And in fact the federal government does prosecute straw purchase cases.

I don't think it is a tin-foil hat claim to point out that there is a massive discrepancy between the number of NICS denials and the number of related firearms prosecutions. (See: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/bjs/grants/239272.pdf)

In 2010, that is 72,659 denials just via the FBI NICS (not including state checks or exemptions). If each of those denials is valid (which of course was not the case), then somebody lied on a Form 4473 and committed a federal felony. Of those denials, 4,732 were referred to ATF field offices for additional investigation. ATF declined to further investigate in 4,184 of those investigations. Of the 62 cases actually referred for prosecution, prosecutors declined to prosecute 18 of those cases.

That is a substantial drop. BJS doesn't report how many of those are picked up by state prosecutors; but it suggests strongly that the feds could probably find more than 22 people who lied on a 4473 in 2010 (which would appear to include straw-purchasers as well as other lies).

You might argue it is a non-sequitr for a civil claim against the gun store; but it seems as though the feds have a much larger potential pool of straw purchasing cases then the ones they end up prosecuting. You can argue the relevance of the point to this case but it hardly seems fair to characterize it as a "tin foil hat claim."
 
AlfonsDeWolf said:
Frank Ettin and anyone else, about not remembering recent customers......
First, I've spent some years in the retail business and am personally familiar with the challenges of remembering customers, but --

  • In the context of the case being discussed, we're talking about a short period;

  • We also can't say categorically that in the case being discussed it would have been unreasonable to expect someone in the shop to have remembered the prior encounter that day;

  • In my personal experience in retail sometimes I did remember certain customers and certain dealings, at least for some period of time.

Bartholomew Roberts said:
Frank Ettin said:
All the usual "tin-foil hat" claims for which no one supplies any substantial evidence. And in fact the federal government does prosecute straw purchase cases.

I don't think it is a tin-foil hat claim to point out that there is a massive discrepancy between the number of NICS denials and the number of related firearms prosecutions. (See: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/bjs/grants/239272.pdf)....
While it's certainly clear that there is a discrepancy between the number of NICS denials and the number of related firearms prosecutions, we have no real information on the reasons. So what's "tin-foil hat" is the implication that there is something nefarious about that.

And as you correctly point out, that discrepancy has nothing to do with the case under discussion.
 
There is a lot of ATF training for FFLs alerting them to be on the look out for straws purchasing for prohibited persons or straw purchasers supplying guns to resellers who are dealing in guns without a license. Clerks working for an FFL should be exercising due diligence. If proper attention to prevent straw purchase was exercised, the FFL ought to be protected by the law; if the FFL was negligent, the FFL may be liable.
 
Frank Ettin said:
(W)e have no real information on the reasons. So what's "tin-foil hat" is the implication that there is something nefarious about that.

Well, I don't know I would describe it as conspiratorial. Nefarious might be a little closer to the mark though. It is hard not to take it personally when the Executive whose job it is to faithfully administer the laws is reducing firearms prosecutions (an area in which he has unquestioned authority) in favor of reinterpreting delegations of Congressional power in a dubious way that primarily impacts peaceable citizens.

There might well be a dozen valid reasons for the reduction in prosecutions; but the press remains quite incurious about that situation if they are even aware it exists. So as you pointed out, we lack information why there are 72,659 potential felonies but only 44 prosecutions.

Meanwhile, lawsuits like this one get breathless coverage promoting the idea that the existing laws prohibiting expanding the definition of gross negligence specifically for firearms manufacturers somehow allow gun dealers to knowingly sell guns to prohibited people without penalty.

Just out of curiousity, doea anyone know what mens rea is for the Indiana state crime?
 
I am with Frank Ettin.


And i find it pretty annoying how some folks seem to have opinion-reflexes
totally disconneted to the situation on the ground.

I' pro 2A - so this is WRONG!

It´s like single-issue voting.
This life, this society, this universe is not a simple as some people wish it was.


*shrugs*
 
"Then, hours later a dude comes in and buys a gun, you're supposed to sit there and stare at every person that buys a gun and think,..."

Frank made the point a couple of times that these cases depends on the specific facts, which we don't have for this case.

Ryanxia's comment is an example - he's implicitly assuming a set of facts - a busy store, nothing memorable about the customer, etc. That's one of the possible sets of facts, and a set that would argue against liability.

But there are other possible sets of facts. Suppose Alice and Bob visit the store. Alice picks out a gun, while Bob is uninterested - he spends the whole time playing Angry Birds in a corner of the store. When Alice is filling out the 4473 she asks about the 'No convictions' part: "What's this? Are you saying I can't buy a gun because of a bull**** 20 year old 2nd degree murder conviction for killing a dude who totally deserved it?". The clerk says, sorry, that's what it means. She leaves in a huff.

Hours later Bob comes back. It was a slow day, and the clerk instantly recognizes him. Bob says 'Uh, yeah, I decided I want to buy a ...(pulls out a note) 'Glack? Glock? something like that, in ...uh ... 9 caliber'.

Now, I don't think straw purchase laws actually do much good. Even if the clerk sends Bob packing, Bob and Alice have learned, and they'll just visit another store with a more polished act. But I also think that, with those facts, a reasonably prudent clerk ought to refuse to sell to Bob, and if a reckless clerk sells anyway, the clerk can't escape liability. This isn't a gun specific thing; if you loan your car to your obviously blind drunk friend, you should be liable.

It's important to not assume one or another set of facts, and then extrapolate a conclusion to the general case.
I've had the same situation; woman comes in with man, man pretends to look at reloading equipment, woman pulls out paper written in a man's writing, says "I want a........AR-15 and five dot five six bullets." Flat out told her no, pointed to the sign on the wall saying "We reserve the right to not sell firearms to anyone for any reason." Man glares at me as they walk away. Figured it was so obvious, it was probably an ATF sting.....:rolleyes:
 
There is a lot of ATF training for FFLs alerting them to be on the look out for straws purchasing for prohibited persons or straw purchasers supplying guns to resellers who are dealing in guns without a license. Clerks working for an FFL should be exercising due diligence. If proper attention to prevent straw purchase was exercised, the FFL ought to be protected by the law; if the FFL was negligent, the FFL may be liable.


I for one am curious about all the training you talk about. I have had my FFL for 12+ years and have NEVER had any formal training on spotting a straw purchase.

I suppose its possible, even perhaps probable that ATF does offer seminars as a training of sorts, I do know they have seminars during the SHOT show, however, I have never attended SHOT..
 
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