Bonded .308 vs. .30-06 Armor Piercing Grizzly Defense

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AR-Tenner

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Hi Folks,

My wife and I are planning a two week hike for one of the coming summers through the Montana Rockies to fish for Golden and Cutthroat Trout, and I am debating what firearm and load to bring for the eventuality of an attack by a grizzly bear. I have ruled out handguns, as I would not trust my .45 ACP (even with its 230gr flat points at 950fps I use for black bear defense while fishing) or even my 10mm for a 700lb angry predator, and I have no desire to spend a huge amount of money on a .44 magnum and then as much money and years learning how to shoot it even close to as well as I can my current handguns.

Therefore, it is between my rifles or shotguns, and I MUCH prefer my rifles. As you can guess by my handle (as well as the fact that I'm the author of the new book on the AR-10), I would prefer to bring one of those, perhaps my Portuguese or modern full-length model for me and my carbine for my wife, but I am also considering taking my Garand or Remington 750 (I like the Garand better, but the 750 is over 3 pounds lighter, and with a 10-round magazine of .30-06, it would be more practical), because I have a bunch of AP ammo for those, and one can't legally get that stuff for 7.62 NATO.

A lot of folks say that a quality bonded bullet like a Nosler Partition or Hornady Interbond would be best, but although these would expand and damage tissue more, I worry that they would not be sufficient to penetrate the massive bones in a grizzly's shoulder, or particularly the skull, which is several inches of bone under thick fur and tough hide.

This is why I thought of bringing the Garand or 750 loaded with M2 AP rounds, which are perfectly reliable in both weapons, and even extremely accurate (it has been called "M2 Match" by competition Garand shooters). All the stories about how a grizzly skull is about the toughest thing in nature made me think that even though it would not make as big a wound channel (although tumbling might improve this quite a bit), the insanely hard, sharpened armor penetrator core in those M2 bullets would give me the best possible chance of punching through that grizzly's noggin, even with a glancing hit that might deflect another round.

What do y'all folks think about this idea of using an AP round for bear defense, and how do you think it would stack up to a quality bonded bullet like a Hornady Interbond? I would lean in bonded bullets towards the 150gr Interbond, because it is ballistically identical to the 150gr SST, which is all of my AR-10s' favorite bullet, and I could just use the same charge of H4895 for the Interbond as I could for the SST and not have to work up a new load.

However, for me to use a bonded bullet, though, I'd have to be able to be assured very well that it would penetrate a bear skull reliably, as when one is charging you, you are facing mostly tough bone, where expansion seems to me to not be as important as deep penetration.

Now, before the chorus of "take a shotgun with slugs" starts, I regularly hunt geese, ducks, and turkeys with 3.5" magnum loads from a 6.5lb shotgun, so I am very familiar with the platform and not at all recoil shy. I do recognize, however, the limitations of the different platforms and my own abilities with them. I have done a lot of comparison shooting, and although I am an experienced shotgunner (well, as experienced as a guy in his 20s who was raised by gun-hating liberals can be), in the time it takes me to put 3 3" magnum slugs on a silhouette target at 25, 15, or 10 yards, even from my considerably heavier Benelli Supernova Tactical, I can put the whole 20rd magazine of any of my AR-10s on the same target.

No matter how used to the recoil I am, the sheer power of that Benelli coming back has knocked me over before, even with 2.75" buckshot and slug loads when I have had to shoot quickly on unstable ground with poor footing, or from a kneeling position. This might well be my situation if unexpectedly charged by a bear, and in those same types of stances, the AR-10s with their straight-line stocks, Battlecomps, smooth semi-auto actions can essentially stay locked on target for very rapid and long strings of fire.

Also, I just plain hate carrying my shotguns, as my Supernova in particular loves to flip over when carried across my chest on its tactical sling. The AR-10s or .30-06 rifles, in contrast, stay tucked in tight, and I almost forget I am wearing them when hiking.

Thanks a lot in advance! :)
 
Hiking for two weeks in the rockies? Carrying fishing gear?

Buy a suitable handgun.
 
If you can comfortably carry it the AR10 is perfect for your needs. You are familiar with how to use it, and already have a good sling system. Now about bear protection... I've ran around in the mountains in Montana a bit, and I haven't had any bear issues, so keep camp clean and food free except for meal times and you should be fine. That said, you are not talking hunting, but self defense. Bears, even the biggest ones aren't a tank, but bone and muscle. Armor piercing bullets would shoot one end to the other through any inland griz, and not transfer a lot of energy doing it. Use an interbond or any heavy weld core style bullet in the 308, I would personally go about 180 grain, and call it good. And remember, if you have to shoot a griz, it's gonna be close, so just pop em a few times and don't stay in front of them! Bears will usually continue to charge straight after being lethally shot so get outta the way. Otherwise enjoy the backcountry.

Sent from my LGLS740 using Tapatalk
 
The idea of hiking with a 8-10lb rifle through the Montana mountains would not thrill me, particularly if you are not used to the altitude, which judging by your location you wouldn't be. Regardless, given the limitations you stated, I'd get the heaviest bullet that your AR10 can reliably handle and load those. It may be slow, but it has better momentum.
 
Finn Aagaard, noted African guide and gun writer, along with Phil Shoemaker who guides for Alaskan Brown bear both tested this theory for years. Both independently came to the conclusion that a 220 gr Nosler partition fired from either a 30-06 or 300 WM out penetrated EVERYTHING short of 375 H&H magnum on large game. The 200 gr Partitions looked good too. And 375 didn't beat it by much.

The Alaska fish and game tested various rifles and calibers to recommend hunters and fishermen a rifle for large bear protection and also reached the exact same conclusion. Their 1st choice is 375 mag followed closely by 30-06 if loaded with 220 gr partitions.

308 wasn't tested by all 3 and only with 180 gr bullets when tested. 308, 30-06, and 300WM all were way behind with 180 gr bullets. So far no one to my knowledge has tested the 308 with 200-220 gr bullets. I suspect that it may well be right with 30-06 with the same bullets. But until I see data to support the theory won't recommend it.

Shotgun slugs performed poorly in all 3 tests. As did rounds such as 444, 45-70, 35 Whelen, 338-06 etc. The 338 WM didn't even match 30-06 or 300 WM.

But a rifle or shotgun just isn't practical. A handgun that is with you all the time is what you need.

Phil Shoemaker has been suggesting that a 357 mag or even 9mm loaded with heavy for caliber hard cast bullets will work just fine for grizzly defense. In fact he had a fishing client attacked by a large male brown bear in early August that he killed with 147 gr 9mm Buffalo Bore ammo.

I camp and hike a lot in black bear country and have been to Yellowstone and other areas of the NW where grizzly live. I carry either a G20 or G29 loaded with 200gr hardcast bullets at 1300 fps loaded by Double Tap. There is at least 1 documented incident of 10mm working in Alaska to stop a brown bear attack. The Glocks in 10mm are becoming quite popular replacing heavier 44 mag revolvers in Alaska.

There have been at least 2 incidents where 45 has worked in Alaska in recent years. But given the choice of 9mm or 10mm for this use 45 would be my 3rd choice. Both 9mm and 10mm out penetrate 45 in tests.
 
AR-Tennet,
If you have a 10mm, buy some good quality hardcast ammo and go fishing. This has been debated over and over. But you're new here. You gonna let your wife have a gun too?
 
Carrying a rifle for any reason other than hunting will get old fast. Most people don't encounter a grizzly or have any bear issues. You should start by focusing on the basics of not having problems with bears. (#0: don't smell like bacon.)

I would think about carrying your 10mm pistol since you own it and it's a lot better than nothing, but something you might actually carry.

If you insist on carrying a rifle/shotgun I would choose the smallest and lightest option so you're likely to actually carry it, and not curse it every minute of your two weeks. A 12ga with slugs is widely recommended, not too heavy and not expensive. Otherwise I would buy a lightweight .30-06 and get ammo with the 220gr Nosler partition mentioned above by jmr40. Or carry the 750, but I think even that will get old fast.
 
Phil Shoemaker has been suggesting that a 357 mag or even 9mm loaded with heavy for caliber hard cast bullets will work just fine for grizzly defense. In fact he had a fishing client attacked by a large male brown bear in early August that he killed with 147 gr 9mm Buffalo Bore ammo.
Click to expand...

That has been my greatest fear, in regards to the various "9mm kills bear" threads. That because this guy lucked out one time, that the young'uns on the various websites would draw the conclusion that a 9mm is a proper bear stopper load.

Don
 
I spent a while in Kodiak AK. I rarely carried a gun when I went fishing, even in some very remote areas. Don't burden yourself with a long gun. Your 10 will do just fine.
 
I'm planning some fishing trips in the near future in MT and ID and based on my research, I'd take the G20 and the .45 and load them with these:

https://www.underwoodammo.com/10mm-auto-140-grain-xtreme-penetrator/

https://www.underwoodammo.com/45-acp-p-200-grain-xtreme-penetrator/

Check out the videos on You Tube. These are excellent.

Better than a rifle? No. But long guns tend to be set down a lot, while a pistol is typically worn constantly and available.

Make sure your firearm cycles these rounds okay.

YMMV


Take Care,

Buzz
 
My Remington 750 was so unreliable feeding that I had to get rid of it (to my gunsmith), hope yours is better, especially in bear country. As jmr40 states, the Alaska wildlife officials highly valued the 220 grain .30-06 in the recommendations they made. I have that link saved somewhere, maybe I can find it. I too have some armor piercing ammo, but would use the 220's instead if it were me.
 
The 10 mm will stay on your hip and be there when you might need it. If you must go .06, skip the AP--- the bear won't be wearing a level 3 vest w/ plates. AP will likely pass through and not dump much energy into the bear.
 
10mm with the right ammo will down any bear if hit right. Any gun with out the hit right part wont down a charging bear. the pistol can be deployed quicker and being semi auto gives you some chances.
 
if an 06 with 180 partitions doesnt kill it then you need a bigger rifle. A solid if anything is going to do less damage and kill a bit slower.
 
Neo-Luddite said:
The 10 mm will stay on your hip and be there when you might need it. If you must go .06, skip the AP--- the bear won't be wearing a level 3 vest w/ plates. AP will likely pass through and not dump much energy into the bear.
Click to expand...
Yep, AP will just make a small hole through a bear which might really tick him off. AP would have to be perfectly placed to do the job. (you probably wouldn't have enough time to get that perfect placement.

Lafitte
 
Agreed on skipping the long gun and taking a hand gun.

The Ruger Alaskan in .454 Casull is a proven performer for Alaskan guides in close and in your face Grizzly and Brown bear attacks. It has reliably stopped bear attacks with power and has dropped them in their tracks with the end result being the saving of lives.

If you just want to buy something new for the trip, this choice would never be a mistake to address your concerns.
 
Make sure both you and your wife watch "The Revenant" and then make up your mind! ha At least a handgun would still be strapped to you, and the Chesty Puller Rig looks like the easiest to access the handgun from with either hand ( assuming one is already damaged) Good luck.
 
I would not be carrying a rifle unless I was hunting. If I were, it sure as hell wouldn't be an AR-10. It would be a lightweight levergun or bolt. Nor would I be depending on a rifle to do a handgun's job. Rifles get put down, handguns can be on your person 24/7 and that's what you need for fishing/camping. You'd be better served with either your .45ACP or 10mm loaded with 220-255gr hardcasts. Either will do a commendable job with the proper bullet.

If you do go forward with the rifle idea, avoid FMJ at all costs. Penetration won't do you any good without a decent wound channel. For a .308, a 180gr controlled expansion bullet like the Partition or Barnes would be an infinitely better choice.


The Alaska fish and game tested various rifles and calibers to recommend hunters and fishermen a rifle for large bear protection and also reached the exact same conclusion. Their 1st choice is 375 mag followed closely by 30-06 if loaded with 220 gr partitions.
Click to expand...
Are you referring to that test done in the `80's? If so, it is outdated and completely useless. The reason rounds like the .444 and .45-70 did poorly is because of the piss poor bullets and loads used in the test. Loaded with heavyweight LBT's, either will easily outpenetrate cartridges like the `06. The 220gr .30-06 recommended was the Remington CorLokt, not the Partition. Even the slugs tested were not applicable to what we have today. I still think a shotgun with slugs is a poor choice but the Brenneke Black Magic is infinitely better than the Fosters used in the test.
 
All that said, my choice would be a big bore revolver in a chest rig like this Ruger .44Mag. But a lesser handgun you're already proficient with is a better choice than a cannon you're not at all comfortable with.

IMG_7067b.jpg
 
Biggest Grizzly killed in self defense was in Canada. The gent had a 30/30 leveraction rifle with plain softpoints. Dropped him with one shot.

He said the charge was so fast if he had of had one of his bigger rifles he never would have gotten it into action in time...

Don't over do it. Sure there have been cases of failure to stop charges. If a handgun, just pick one that will penitrate at least 3-4 feet of flesh and bone so as to know you can reach their brain and spine and break bones.

Actually the firearms used were quite effective over the years.

In TOM S. SMITH's article on effectiveness of firearms his database covers 1883–2009. That includes a lot of black powder guns including cap-n-ball (he never showed any data as to what exactly was used or how it was used.)

"Human Dimensions Efficacy of Firearms for Bear Deterrence in Alaska"

As he said: "Success rates** by firearm type were similar with 84% of handgun users (31 of 37) and 76% of long gun users (134 of 176) successfully defending themselves from aggressive bears."

Kind of strange handguns had more success than long guns but that may be cause they are faster to get into action and only one hand needed.

But not bad. No telling how many used low powered guns. And his suggestion was, "Our findings suggest that only those proficient in firearms use should rely on them for protection in bear country." No kidding. I would think being proficient with ANYTHING would be something to recommend.

What is more, he gave a break down of why firearms failed to protect from bears. Ranged from mechanical issues to problems with the 'safety' to lack of time to respond to the bear to tripping and falling!!!, etc. Hmm tripping and falling is a firearms failure?

Just carry a good gun you know you can shoot well and fast.

Deaf

**Smiths definition of success in both studies was, "We defined successful outcomes as bear spray having stopped the undesirable behavior of the bear. A bear that no longer pursues a person, breaks off an attack, abandons attempts to acquire food or garbage, or turns and leaves the area are examples of successful outcomes."
 
Also, I just plain hate carrying my shotguns, as my Supernova in particular loves to flip over when carried across my chest on its tactical sling. The AR-10s or .30-06 rifles, in contrast, stay tucked in tight, and I almost forget I am wearing them when hiking.
Click to expand...

Well, if you find it that easy to hump the Garand up and down the mountains and around the lakes and trout streams of Montana, then by all means load the AP ammo in a bunch of clips, stuff those in a bandolier, and take the M1.

Me, I'd take my Glock 40, the 10mm long slide. I'd load it hot and heavy, with a spare mag on the belt, and carry it in an Alaskan Guide chest holster.

G40MOS-1.jpg
 
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How are you going to shoot a charging bear with a 30-06? You have just a few seconds to unsling the rifle, acquire a sight picture, clear the safety (you will carry with a charged chamber, I assume), and fire accurately. While holding a fishing rod.

No thanks!
 
roscoe said:
How are you going to shoot a charging bear with a 30-06? You have just a few seconds to unsling the rifle, acquire a sight picture, clear the safety (you will carry with a charged chamber, I assume), and fire accurately. While holding a fishing rod.

No thanks!
Click to expand...
Use a one point sling for speed, drop the fishing rod as soon as you see the bear and practice clearing the safety as you acquire the sight picture. It's all in the wrist;-)

But personally I'd prefer a pump or levergun so one can chamber a round as the gun is brought up to acquire the sight picture. Pumps (Remington) and leverguns (Browning) can be had in 30-06 (and bigger rounds.)

Deaf
 
The problem with using .30 cal military style FMJ is that they aren't designed for deep straight penetration on flesh. To the contrary, they yaw, twist, bend, and at close range rupture and fragment.

The 220gr .30/06 is in fact the "gold standard" for deep penetration in game. At a nominal 2,400fps m/v, with strong jackets and a sectional density of .331, it exceeds even the near ledgendary 6.5gr 160's with a s.d. Of .321.
This explains the aforementioned test results favoring the heavy .30cal bullets.

However, the probability of a adversarial encounter with a grizzly in the lower 48 contraindicates justification of carrying the weight and bulk of a .30/06 rifle. My Colt Light Rifle at ~7lbs with scope with it's 24"bbl will get "old" soon. The best gun to have when you need it, is what you happen to have. You'll much more likely have the handgun "at hand" if you need it.

So, you are back to the 10mm handgun. Loaded with 200gr FMJ, you'll likely be "adequately" armed. Most likely, the two legged varmints bent on raiding your camper will be your most likely threat.
Remember, the gun is just "insurance", something you hope you don't have to use.
But include a 24oz canister of bear repellant in your Kit. Without it, you may have a hard time explaining why you had to resort to shooting the bear.
But in the final analysis, it's better to be "tried by 12, than carried by 6", or one or two, depending on how much the bear leaves...
 
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I know a lot of folks think a handgun is the only reasonable answer, but there are appropriate .30-06 rifles also. This is an example, it's my Ruger 77 carbine with 19" barrel, quick tang safety, iron sights, and even with the rings weighs in at less than 7 lbs...

406740141.jpg
 
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