Reason to stop carrying?

I don't want to be critical on someone who just doesn't have the mindset to carry. But it's such a crazy reality of some people. I like the saying I'd rather fight to the death than be executed head down and on my knees. Some one on this forum said that even if they didn't prevail in a gun fight at least they'd die doing what they love (shooting). I carry mostly an lcr now. Two speed loaders. Sometimes I'll add a second revolver and a couple more strips (Detroit). God forbid but if I had to I would engage , escape and elude. Whatever necessary. Not carrying and being an unarmed softie will never be an option for me ( where legally permissible). Even then I'll have a knife.

If it was a choice based on logic then it's one of the dumbest decisions I've ever heard. If he gave it a lot of thought though, and came to the decision that he doesn't have the mental edge to get into a gunfight then I say good for him for being honest with himself. Hopefully for his sake he is somehow able to acquire that edge, but for now it seems like his decision may be for the best.

I had a friend who kept a fire extinguisher in his kitchen. You know the type, one of those small 2.5 lb BC types that can easily be concealed inside of a cabinet.

Well one day he heard about a neighbor who was working in his garage and accidently kicked over a 5 gallon can full of gasoline. There was a propane heater going at the time, so the entire garage, and soon too the house, was engulfed in flames and burned to the ground. My friend was just at that house hours earlier.

It got my friend to thinking that had that happened at his own house, he might have tried to fight a large gasoline fire with a small 2.5 lb fire extinguisher instead of escaping, and could have died. It frightened him so much that he got rid of the fire extinguisher altogether.

Makes about as much sense to me.

I still find such lackalogic unfathomable.

My defensive equipment may not be up to what I may need it to do, so I jettison it instead of upgrading & leave myself completely defenseless.

The cheap donut spare tire that came in the new car can't run for thousands of miles on the next trip East to visit my daughter's family like a real spare tire if I get a flat 500 miles from home, so I toss it in the dump & don't upgrade.
Leaving me without any emergency flat tire solution whatever.

This type of thinking is utterly devoid of intelligence.

And I will NOT be dumping the little fire extinguisher that actually sits in the kitchen, for SMALL KITCHEN FIRES, because it can't save my neighbor's house if they go up in flames.

I will never comprehend such "thought" processes.
Denis

+1
On that I don't believe that having a brush with a dangerous situation means you should from now on be unarmed. That's like ALMOST wrecking a car and never driving again.

In situations like that it's best to observe and be an excellent witness.

That would be a situation where he shouldn't have drawn a J-frame, but nobody said he HAD to draw it in that particular scenario.

Sometimes, when you know you're outgunned, the best you can do standby and think with your brain, not your trigger finger.

There's an extreme lack of critical thinking ability on the part of the friend all the way through that original post story.
Denis

Only time I don't is when the state I'm visiting prevents me from doing so. Jail time is the only way to prevent me from carrying. The OP's friend has some strange thought patterns. I'd think w/ what happened his resolve to carry would be strengthened.

Cooldill said:

In situations like that it's best to observe and be an excellent witness.

That would be a situation where he shouldn't have drawn a J-frame, but nobody said he HAD to draw it in that particular scenario.

Sometimes, when you know you're outgunned, the best you can do standby and think with your brain, not your trigger finger.

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Exactly...

I said similar back in Post #36.
You are not a police officer and you are not obligated to stop a crime, especially when no one's life is being threatened. The only time I would draw my handgun would be to prevent loss of life, not properly and especially not for insured bank money lol. (or if someone breaks into my home)

People often have flawed logic. I heard an ol'timer say "it ain't worth winn'n lottery cause all the taxes ye'd have to pay". Bless their hearts. I'd rather be armed than not, in any situation.

Several years ago I was confronted by a man with a shotgun who thought I was trespassing on his land. I was in fact on public land and he was incorrect about the property lines. I was not armed and can't be while I'm working anyway.

That incident is one of the reasons I started carrying. I've thought about that day and if I'd been carrying, with the mentality I had then, I may have drawn on that gentleman. I don't think that would have been appropriate since I difussed the situation with words. Drawing a gun would have only made a bad situation a lot worse.

My attitude is a lot different now. Carrying requires a calm reaction and ability to asses a situation logically. Intervening requires even closer consideration as legal and moral implications are profound.

My personal standpoint is that property and money is replaceable. I'm not going to shoot someone to protect money. If I'm going to protect something, it's life, because that is irreplaceable. The op's friend needs to hash this out and think about WHY he carries or doesn't.

Carrying a gun isn't right for everyone. There's nothing wrong with that.

I agree that the OP's friends decision sounds odd, however, I think we may be being a tad harsh.

Most are assuming his reason for quitting carry is due to the capacity of the gun (5 shot snub) v. 3 violent thugs. Even if this is the reason, it can make somel sense in some scenarios. If it was a blanket, "I won't carry anymore because I don't have enough ammo" than sure, it is ridiculous. However, maybe he doesn't have the money for another gun right now and he's quitting carry until he can afford something with more capacity. That makes a little sense, though it would make more sense to continue to carry until he can afford a gun with more capacity and simply use discretion about when to respond and when not to.

However, it sounds like there was a lot more to it than that:

It scared him. He decided that, had he been there, he would have engaged with his 5-shot J-frame and would have been outnumbered, outgunned and likely shot.

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It sounds like mindset and discretion may be the issue here, and the friend recognized that he had to work on it before he was ready to carry in public. If he envisioned himself automatically engaging any threat, and realized that going after 3 violent thugs alone would have likely got him killed (even with a higher capacity gun, and especially with a 5 shot snub), than maybe he shouldn’t carry until he gets in the right mindset. In a bank robbery, they may not (and it sounds like they did not) just start randomly shooting people (from the OP, it sounds like the woman was killed for her car before the bank robbery). If you don’t need to shoot to save your life or someone else’s, sometimes the correct course of action is to watch and be a good witness. Engaging in those circumstances will escalate the situation and might get someone (you and/or others) killed.


It isn't the decision I'd make, however, I wouldn't just rush in either. I'd take a look and assess the situation before deciding if it was (or was not) appropriate for me to engage. I'd then look at equipment and decide what to do about that. I actually have decided recently that I want more capacity and capability than my typical carry guns in the past (5 shot snub, 6 shot micro-9 and mini-380) and I want something bigger and more controllable in an emergency. When I'm out of state where I can carry, I also carry a knife because not all situations call for the same tool, and I am replacing my long ago expired pepper spray with some pepper foam or gel.

I think your friend made the right decision for himself. His thinking that he would engage multiple bank robbers with his 5-shooter, or a 30-shooter for that matter, is worrisome to say the least. I attended some CCW renewal classes in my state. Listening to some instructors' skewed interpretation of the law, renewal applicant's questions and comments in the classroom portion, then seeing their performance on the range is concerning to say the least. Perhaps your friend attended a similar CCW class and received some erroneous information to the effect that he would be required, or should, take action in the situation described? Anyway, I don't knock him. CCW is not for everyone,even though he/they may legally do so........ymmv

If his reasoning for carry was to instantly & ALWAYS jump in to save the world from evil, that mindset needs major adjustment.

If his reasoning was that, once carrying, he MUST step in & engage simply because he had a gun, that mindset needs major adjustment.

If his reasoning for stopping carry was that he would not be able to resist the gun's insistence on a moral imperative that he intervene just because of its presence, that mindset needs a sledgehammer adjustment.

If he carried to automatically interject a "good gun" into a "bad gun" situation, anytime & everytime encountered, without the necessary cognitive ability to assess a GO/NO Go situation, then he made the correct decision (belatedly) about ceasing to carry.

If he viewed his snub as a physical embodiment of the Superman Credo, fighting for Truth, Justice, and the American Way, as opposed to a basic tool for self-defense appropriately used as such, then he should not be carrying.

It appears, from the info given, that his reasoning process from start to finish was severely flawed.

Carry or don't, but make your decision based on reality.
Applying sound thought processes, if you decide to carry, and you start out with a tool of limited capability, and you suddenly experience an epiphany that opens your eyes to its limitations, you either upgrade or accept those limitations.

Logic would not rule in favor of dropping the carry program entirely, and depriving yourself of at least a more effective defensive implement than teeth & fingernails.
Denis

critter said:

Had a friend who was into guns in a big way for many, many years. Had a CCW and carried all the time, mostly a S&W J-frame.

Three vermin in our town kidnapped a lady for her car, put her in the trunk, hauled her to a secluded place, took her out and murdered her. Used the car as a getaway in the robbery of a local branch bank-----the one my friend frequented and had just left a few minutes earlier.

It scared him. He decided that, had he been there, he would have engaged with his 5-shot J-frame and would have been outnumbered, outgunned and likely shot.

Scared him so badly, he stopped carrying all together!

Not likely my reaction. Anybody else have reacted that way? Anybody else ever been in a similar situation? I would appreciate any comments and/or insight regarding the situation. Thanks.

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So instead he decided to leave himself totally helpless?
Doesn't sound wise to me.

Merle1 said:

So instead he decided to leave himself totally helpless?
Doesn't sound wise to me.

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I don't agree with his decision either. If I felt the way he did, I'd work on my logic and attitude, even over choosing a higher capacity gun.

But if he realizes with his personality that carrying a gun is going to get him into a bad situation because he doesn't have the personal restraint required to be a concealed carrier, then I absolutely applaud his decision.

People who want to be a hero should not carry a gun. People with a hot temper that they are not in control of should not carry a gun. People who can't keep their mouth shut should not carry a gun. People who like to fight should not carry a gun.

People who want to uphold the law, or stop the bad guys, or protect everyone should carry a gun, and it should be in a police officer's duty holster.

It's just my opinion, but I'm sticking by it.

critter said:

It scared him. He decided that, had he been there, he would have engaged with his 5-shot J-frame and would have been outnumbered, outgunned and likely shot.

Scared him so badly, he stopped carrying all together!

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Per the scenario in your OP, the lady was killed in spite of putting up little or no resistance. At least with a 5 shot J-Frame you can take one or two(or all three) with you. Odds are too, once the gun was pulled, the three cowards would have run like little girls after being shown a snake. At least with a gun, you have a fighting chance. Still better than kneeling and waiting for the black.

All this has done for me is to convince me to have a 38 stashed in the trunk and keep my Kel-Tec P-11 in my pocket. He may choose to be a victim rather than a survivor but that is not my choice.

I had a brush with violence too. A college roommate and I has been looking at stereos at this Good Guys! in Sacramento on April 4, 1991 and left right before (or even just as) the hostage takers arrived. We saw it on the news when we got back to our apartment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Sacramento_hostage_crisis

As you can tell from the article they had a lot of screws loose with their illogical demands. One thing I remember form local reports was they spoke a local street dialog of Thai the police translator had a lot of trouble understanding.

I gave a lot of thought to what I could have done or not done in the days, weeks, and months afterward. There was no CCW in CA back then. My thoughts involved an emphasis on cover and attrition. I was glad to not have been there but had I been delayed leaving that store, I would have wanted to have been armed.

Mike

took her out and murdered her. Used the car as a getaway in the robbery of a local branch bank-----the one my friend frequented and had just left a few minutes earlier.

It scared him. He decided that, had he been there, he would have engaged with his 5-shot J-frame and would have been outnumbered, outgunned and likely shot.

Scared him so badly, he stopped carrying all together!

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I'm sorry his "solution" is to now just die quietly?

Even though it was 3-1 and only 5 shots that still beats a spare tire and crow bar from the trunk he would have been thrown in.

Will never know for sure but likely also beats "You can take my car but please, please don't hurt me!"

Oh well, in the end, the decision is his to make.

A possibly more sensible option would have been just to never return to that bank.

I mean- the place obviously ain't safe, it gets ROBBED!!!!!!
Just switch banks to a safer one that doesn't, keep the snub, and life goes merrily onward, eh what?
Denis

Big difference between defending ones self and trying to be a HERO. I would not want to be at a bank with a HERO. He sounds delusional a bad trait if you carry.

So you find yourself as a bystander in an armed robbery. You yell at the perp and he turns round. You are confronted by the following picture at 8 yards. Assume any round hitting the bad guy in the left arm/shoulder passes thru to the innocent on the other side.

http://www.letargets.com/content/lsar-1-man-gun-at-cashier-counter-armed-robbery-target.asp

Still want to be a hero? Maybe you need more practice.

Or maybe you simply exit for help? Which reaction keeps more people alive? Is he there for money or did she cheat on him? I guess there is no right answer.

silver prospector,

Well to me there's not much hard about that one. But you do have to be there for any nuances.

Seems in that pic you let the fella with the gun dominate the stage by calling out to him and letting him turn around and point a gun at you at which point you better assume he will pull the trigger. But options could have been reviewed before you called out to him and alerted him to your presence. You had the choice of how you wanted to set the stage. In the scenario you laid out you let him set it.

tipoc

Tell him to stop watching mediocre action movies, where CCW heroes stop a bank robbery all the time - and then go to lunch.


CCW is for life endangering an amok situations. Not for playing hero during a robbery.