Serpa Holsters & Ranges

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Good Ol' Boy

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I've noticed several local ranges don't allow Serpa style holsters in training. They cite "a lot of accidents" as the reason why.

What gives? Can anyone show some legitimate examples that were holster oriented and not user error?


My full size pistol came with a Serpa style holster which I very much like. I practice with it just as much as my IWB CC holster for it and feel that I am pretty proficient with it.


I'm kind of lost as to why this "banning" of Serpa style holsters seems like a common theme.
 
Everything is "user error", but some things encourage those errors.

Combining a holster that requires you to tense your trigger finger right over the trigger while simultaneously pulling the gun away from the only thing separating the tensed finger and the trigger has proven to be dangerous with Glocks and other light trigger guns.

Designs that require the trigger finger to be somewhere other than right over the trigger don't get banned at ranges, do they?
 
yep. i know of two instances, one in a match and one in a class, where people shot themselves. both were with serpa holsters.

i know some people have to use them, but i'd think twice about it. on the positive side, people tend to shoot themselves instead of others, like say, shoulder holsters...
 
The Serpa design can be safe if you spend a significant amount of time training properly with it. The problem is that many people that get Serpas don't spend significant time training with them, and what they do is usually using improper method. The proper technique is to push with the pad of the finger. Many people use the point of the finger. That's when things go bad.
 
The Serpa design can be safe if you spend a significant amount of time training properly with it.

having to spend a significant amount of time training properly with something to make it safe would make it a phenomenally bad product
 
The Serpa design can be safe if you spend a significant amount of time training properly with it. The problem is that many people that get Serpas don't spend significant time training with them, and what they do is usually using improper method. The proper technique is to push with the pad of the finger. Many people use the point of the finger. That's when things go bad.
That's kind of my thought as well. I'm pretty confident that folks have had accidents with other holsters as well, but for some reason the Serpa gets a bad rap. Training is of utmost importance regardless of the equipment.

I've trained with my Serpa both dry and hot and suffered no ill injuries. But I practice almost daily. Those that prefer to only occasionally practice may prefer something more lackadaisical. But that shouldn't hinder those that put in the time and then we blame it on the equipment instead of the user.


In my very humble and apparently insignificant opinion, blaming the holster for accidents is no different than blaming the gun for accidents. YMMV.
 
Several LE agencies have banned them also. Unfortunately there are still some in the system, but they will probably end up being phased out (hopefully). Several in LE have brought up many instances of the holster locking the gun in place, several instances mentioned the holster had to be literally destroyed to get the gun out of it. Many private trainers absolutely ban them also.

This was interesting,

http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2016/02/whom-gods-would-destroy-they-must-first.html


For more reading, and the vid in the above link, google serpa derp
 
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That's kind of my thought as well. I'm pretty confident that folks have had accidents with other holsters as well, but for some reason the Serpa gets a bad rap. Training is of utmost importance regardless of the equipment.

I've trained with my Serpa both dry and hot and suffered no ill injuries. But I practice almost daily. Those that prefer to only occasionally practice may prefer something more lackadaisical. But that shouldn't hinder those that put in the time and then we blame it on the equipment instead of the user.


In my very humble and apparently insignificant opinion, blaming the holster for accidents is no different than blaming the gun for accidents. YMMV.
If I handed you a cocked revolver with a 1 pound hair trigger and told you to carry it that way and you had an ND, would you say the equipment had nothing to do with it?


Lot's of people don't have accidents with dangerous equipment, until they do. Other types of guns and holsters don't seem to "attract" as many accidents. It's almost as if human beings are fallible, and not the perfect God-like specimens they think they are.


The judge on People's Court: "Why is it that every time a dog kills a pet, it just happens to be a pit bull?"
 
I decided to get rid of my serpa after having a hard time unlocking with just the pad of my finger. It seemed the tab needed pushed down just past flush with the rest of the holster which required me to use the tip of my finger. And pushing the tip of my trigger finger in whiling drawing the gun can only lead to problems. Decided on a safari land paddle holster instead, I prefer the design of the paddle aswell.


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Wow. I had to look it up, not being "in on" the latest and greatest tacticool things. Sample:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/11/foghorn/serpa-holsters-should-be-discontinued/

I liked this turn of phrase:

"...my ability to keep my blood on the inside..."

I don't know about you, but just looking at that mechanism, I saw "accident about to happen," training and practice notwithstanding.

Whatever were they thinking?

Funky ole fuddy-duddy me has got along fine with retention straps for decades and never seemed to have any "speed" problem with them, but then again I ain't no speed queen and I'm not particularly interested in shooting clocks.

"Speed's fine, but accuracy's final." Bill Jordan said that.

'Course, if your target is your thigh, knee, foot, or floor, I guess all the speed you can get is OK.

Terry
 
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You can make a case against any form of carry as being dangerous.

Appendix is also on the "is not permitted" list yet I read many who do. In defensive carry classes it's a known risk because of frequent reholstering. And there is a remark about shoulder holsters in this thread - and many ranges do not allow their use in competition.

The point is, what are people doing wrong? The gun is perfectly safe stored in any of these holsters UNTIL THE HUMAN HAND TOUCHES IT. And what are humans trying to do at that point, what is the intent? Extreme speed with increased repetitions as part of practicing.

People trying to be in a hurry and forcing things to happen fast is the common denominator. Design of the holster and it's orientation isn't the major issue, it's the intent to create fast fumbling in practice. Not a fast draw.

IIRC it has been studied that if you want to be proficient in a physical motion you practice it 10,000 times. And many would say a bad repetition doesn't count. Add speed and you increase the bad, error prone repetitions. Speed is the issue. I don't see it as being necessary at all, despite the large number of posters who insist a speed draw is life and death. It obviously increases the risk of a ND and self injury.

It's been preached by others, SMOOTH is better than fast. Fast is actually it's own worst enemy because of the high risk of serious error. SMOOTH reduces that risk while increasing the number of good repetitions to create a more flawless muscle memory set. 10,000 slower, smooth draws are less likely to risk shooting yourself, and smooth reduces errors. Smooth gets the job done. The problem is that human males keep introducing competition over who is better and using the clock to determine it - when the clock is the demonstrated ENEMY of safety which produces injury.

A smooth, confident, practiced and slower delivery of the weapon when you need it reduces error and risk to the holder of that gun and makes for a superior presentation when it's important. This is why range competition is NOT all that for practicing actual confrontations. When you introduce speed you increase risk. Increased risk means we are endangering ourselves MORE on the range in practice and competition than we are by our daily lifestyle of non competitive carry "on the mean streets."

It's said even in today's current events that a cop can carry his service weapon without drawing it to protect his life during his entire career. And yet we read about people getting shot on ranges in competition or class instruction - regardless of what make or position of holster they are using. It's SPEED which is our enemy as it increases risk.

If you are looking to shoot yourself, tho, it's easy - just go faster and practice a lot more for speed than being smooth. You will eventually have your finger on the trigger far too soon on the draw or in reholstering and you will discharge the weapon at your body.
 
I had a long diatribe I was working out in my head, laying out all the arguments against the SERPA. I decided instead to just link this. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...pa-promo-segment-inadvertently-breaks-rule-3/

(if the link is removed because of a TOS violation on THR, my apologies for the violation. go to The Firearm Blog, search for 'SERPA', it's the 2nd item listed.)

If a "PRO" can screw it up, us unwashed mere mortals are lucky we're not all dead.
 
A lot of ranges don't allow you to draw from a holster at all, they also require you to point the gun either straight up or down. Most ranges don't allow ammunition in guns when people are down range, or allow you to handle unloaded gun when people are ahead of the firing line.

Generally, if accidents happen doing a certain thing, or using a certain product, they get banned.
 
I don't see the holster debate ending any sooner than the other hot button topics involving carrying a gun.
Retention or not, concealed or not, shoulder, cross draw, IWB, OWB, appendix, SOB all have what could be described as fatal drawbacks but guns are dangerous things right?

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I wore a Blackhawk lever 3 serpa holster for about 7 years with an m&p 9mm service weapon and never had an issue. its called training! you also don't poke the side release pad with the tip of your finger you use the pad of it or the middle of the finger if you have long fingers like me. I just requalified last month with mine after not wearing it for a year and had 0 issues. whistle goes off, gun comes out and fire 2 shots in 30 seconds or something in that matter.

A lot of these guys get these holsters cause they are the plastic, tacticool look and just throw a gun in them and have at it. I also carry a smith and Wesson J frame airweight 30 in a serpa holster and I can lift my shirt, draw and hip fire as fast as anyone with a IWB, pancake, etc. its called training, practice, etc.
 
I've watched a WHOLE lot of people use a WHOLE lot of Serpas, and never seen anyone shoot themselves on the draw, but I understand the concern.

However I think this is a case where the internet echo chamber has blown a relatively small problem up into something bigger than it actually is.

I don't own one, so I don't know how easy this is, but I've seen lots of people remove the retention lever entirely to either improve speed or make the holster comply with local rules.
 
My question is what is the advantage you see in the SERPA?

Most folks, not all of course, are using a holster for either concealment or range/training/competition. In general, the SERPA is a poor choice for any of those uses. It doesn't hold the grip of the pistol close to the body to aid concealment, and why would you want an active retention device on a range/training/competition holster?

Don't get me wrong, the SERPA has its' place. If you're boating, or riding ATV's through the woods, hiking, etc., there is some value to an inexpensive, weather resistant holster, with an active retention device, though Safariland probably produces a better product for those needs.

If you want a concealment holster there are dozens that conceal better than the SERPA, and there are many that are significantly more useful in the range/training/competition arena.
 
The classic problem with the "training is safety" camp is that most of the muscle memory training we do is pulling the trigger. It is the single most well worn neural pathway anyone who's used anything from a squirtgun to an M60 has.

If the whole goal of handling and using a gun was to never touch the trigger, we would all do great at that. But we actually train to touch the trigger a lot, and then train to not do it other times. You can only ingrain a paradox so much - a large part of getting that to work is maintaining rigorous conscious control, which is something you can't "train" for as much as have to actively do.


This is true of a Serpa holster or handling a gun with a light trigger.

This holster has a retention mechanism like a Serpa, but doesn't require the user to tense their trigger finger right above the soon-to-be-open triggerguard.

82.jpg
 
JTQ said:
My question is what is the advantage you see in the SERPA?

Price point and ignorance. Well, that's what I think sells them, not what I think is advantageous about them. I am almost absolutely convinced of that. I think that when most people see a $30 Serpa next to a $100 Safariland ALS they think a holster is a holster and get the cheaper one even though the Safariland is a better holster in all regards. I suspect the lower cost of the Safariland GLS may start to change this.
 
I was turned off ny Serpa holsters when they first appeared. Anything requiring a button to be pushed to get the gun out can fail. Serpas have failed.

You can train to use a Serpa. Why bother? There are hundreds of better designs out there.
 
Here's a video I made of how simple my Serpa holster works. I can't speak for others but I feel like common sense and practice makes perfect, much like most aspects of gun handling.

Note I do show one example in which an idiot might use this holster in the video, but it's really not that hard to keep control of the trigger finger if you've got any sense.



 
I don't generally make the "training" argument in regards to SERPA holsters. I can make the assumption everybody is properly trained in the operation of the SERPA holster. However, as I mentioned before, and is illustrated in your video, the SERPA is a poor concealment holster. Note how far away from your body the SERPA positions the grip of your gun.

If you're not concerned about concealment, and are only using a holster for use at the range, or for a training class, or in competition, I'm not sure what advantage having an active retention device on your holster would give you.
 
I like the Serpa, it is my carry holster. The fact that it does hold the gun away from the body is one of the advantages, it allows you to get your hand in there for a good hold every time. Granted, I live on Texas and don't have to worry about printing. I guess if you were worried about ever showing the outline of the gun the extra space wouldn't be beneficial.
 
Here's a video I made of how simple my Serpa holster works. I can't speak for others but I feel like common sense and practice makes perfect, much like most aspects of gun handling.

Note I do show one example in which an idiot might use this holster in the video, but it's really not that hard to keep control of the trigger finger if you've got any sense.
The video clearly shows how close your tensed finger is to the open trigger guard.

Talking about "sense" ignores that when people are in gunfights or competition the tend to do everything faster and more vigorously, which includes pushing the SERPA release in the direction of the trigger harder than they would in practice. Doing things out of habit is the opposite of doing something under conscious control and 'good sense'.
 
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