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Serpa Holsters & Ranges
- Thread starter Good Ol' Boy
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Good Ol' Boy
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No, the video clearly shows how I (and many others) would draw from any holster, regardless of type. Trigger finger already in the proper "outside the trigger guard" position.
In the proper draws I make my trigger finger is in no danger of making contact with the trigger. It's no different than holding your pistol with your finger outside of the trigger guard.
In fact, I have I hard time even seeing me "press" anything in that video, which is what it should look like with proper technique.
Except that you are pushing your finger towards the trigger.
And if you are stressed, and you get the timing off, you will be pulling up against the mechanism, making it harder to push the release, at which point you will push even harder in the direction of the trigger.
Congrats if you are completely unable to screw this up, but plenty of people have in exactly the way I described.
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Good Ol' Boy
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No I'm not. I can't speak for other Serpa holsters but mine the release is well above the trigger.
You'd have to royally screw up to be anywhere close to the trigger. IMO if you can't use a Serpa the way MINE is designed than you don't need to have your finger outside the guard at all. Just keep all four fingers on the grip until you're ready to pull the trigger.
I can take a pic of my holster if you'd like.
JTQ
Member
I brought up concealment, as one of the two primary types of holsters, either one for concealment or one for range/training/competition.
As I mentioned earlier, the SERPA is really a rather poor choice for any of those situations.
If however, you need a holster for boating, ATV riding, mountain climbing, or other outdoor use, the SERPA has its' place.
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Good Ol' Boy
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It's a poor choice to YOU. For concealment I would agree with you. For range time (which is what mine is primarily used for) where you're just looking a for a holster to stick the gun in when you're not shooting, is perfectly fine. For training, IF YOU PLAN ON CARRYING AND TRAINING THAT WAY, than it's fine for training. I would agree with you on comp shooting, not a great choice.
JTQ
Member
The question would be why do you want or need an active retention device on a range holster?
Comp-Tac, Blade-Tech, Garrett Industries, Raven Concealment Systems, Dale Fricke, Ready Tactical, Daranich Tactical, etc., the list is almost endless for holsters that would be better suited for range use.
Though if you've determined a need for an active retention device on a range holster, more power to you. Rock on with your SERPA. Just be aware some places won't welcome you with your choice.
There are so many quality options that don't require specific training to operate, and are not as unforgiving of poor training as the SERPA is, this is the reason ranges ban them. That's the question you asked, and that's why they don't allow them.
Comp-Tac, Blade-Tech, Garrett Industries, Raven Concealment Systems, Dale Fricke, Ready Tactical, Daranich Tactical, etc., the list is almost endless for holsters that would be better suited for range use.
Though if you've determined a need for an active retention device on a range holster, more power to you. Rock on with your SERPA. Just be aware some places won't welcome you with your choice.
There are so many quality options that don't require specific training to operate, and are not as unforgiving of poor training as the SERPA is, this is the reason ranges ban them. That's the question you asked, and that's why they don't allow them.
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Good Ol' Boy
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Well at least one person mentioned using a Serpa as a carry holster, that would be a reason for retention. IMHO retention is a good thing to have in any holster regardless of what you're doing as you never know what will happen.
"Specific training" is a bit broad in my opinion, as to a range letting you use a specific holster. If ranges started doing that with pistols I bet you'd hear an outcry. We can agree that different pistols are different in operation, yes?
What you are essentially saying is that it's easier to have a "Glock style" holster than a "1911 style" holster. And the fact of the matter is, it just requires different handling. I don't think ranges should be bias towards that aspect.
"Specific training" is a bit broad in my opinion, as to a range letting you use a specific holster. If ranges started doing that with pistols I bet you'd hear an outcry. We can agree that different pistols are different in operation, yes?
What you are essentially saying is that it's easier to have a "Glock style" holster than a "1911 style" holster. And the fact of the matter is, it just requires different handling. I don't think ranges should be bias towards that aspect.
JTQ
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I don't know how new you are to this SERPA debate, but it has been going on for quite some time. There are many of the top training ranges, training facilities, and trainers, in the US that don't allow the SERPA. They've banned them for a reason, and it's not because they don't like the folks at BlackHawk, it is because "trained" professionals have hurt themselves and others while using the SERPA holster. As far as I know, these same ranges haven't banned the 1911 (I'm a 1911 shooter by the way).
If using a SERPA means that much to you, and your local range doesn't allow them, I'd look for a range that does allow the SERPA. Remember it is their range, and their rules. You're the guest and if you want to play at their place, you've got to follow their rules.
I've told you why they're banned. You don't have to believe me, but that is the reason.
If using a SERPA means that much to you, and your local range doesn't allow them, I'd look for a range that does allow the SERPA. Remember it is their range, and their rules. You're the guest and if you want to play at their place, you've got to follow their rules.
I've told you why they're banned. You don't have to believe me, but that is the reason.
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Good Ol' Boy
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I know the debate has been around a while, I just don't understand why. All of the these "pro's" that allegedly have issue with them doesn't make any sense. The holster operation is no different than a particular gun specific operation.
All I'll say is I hope I'm never on the same range as any of these "pro's" that can't safely draw a pistol from a specific holster.
And I think ranges have just got caught in the hype, which is too bad.
All I'll say is I hope I'm never on the same range as any of these "pro's" that can't safely draw a pistol from a specific holster.
And I think ranges have just got caught in the hype, which is too bad.
JTQ
Member
You understand why. People are getting hurt. These agencies aren't making this stuff up.
The holster requires the use of the trigger finger to release the latch. I can't think of any other holster that requires that movement to operate.
There is some utility to the lock device for some specific uses, but there are numerous other designs that don't require the trigger finger to operate them and most of those other holsters are better products in general, regardless of the lock. Most LE use Safariland holsters that use the thumb to unlock just like leather thumb break holsters.
Because they are inexpensive or free, is the primary reason (available at every gun store, and big box store is the other reason) people like the SERPA. I don't know what your experience is with other holsters, but you may want to give some other's a try if you are having trouble finding a range that will allow your SERPA. There are a awful lot of good holsters available.
Are you familiar with the term confirmation bias? <-----(words are link)
You made a post asking a question. You've had a number of good answers, only you seem to refuse to believe any of the Federal Law Enforcement trainers, Departmental trainers or professional trainers that do this stuff for a living and are recognized professionals and experts in their fields know anything about what theyre talking about since they disagree with you. Not sure what to say after that point.
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Winkman822
Member
As someone who has owned and used Serpa holsters for a good stretch, I can say that I'm not a huge fan of them when worn on the hip. It's much easier to operate the Serpa holsters with a straight finger when leg worn than when hip worn. When hip worn, I have caught myself curling my index finger to get better leverage to release the lock. After doing that a time or two, I decided to abandon the Serpa in favor of a Safariland ALS for the times when I need to have some form of active retention (i.e. when out hiking).
jetech
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A Serpa came with my G19. I used a dremel to grind away the back side of the lock rendering it operative. I read about issues with Glocks and Serpa's and decided against it but I liked the holster. The pistol still snaps into the holster and has good retention.
Nathan Detroit
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The timing issue mentioned is the crucial one. I am certain that you guys remember Chris Cirino, he was on the Top Shot show. He shot himself in leg the using a Serpa. My understanding is that he is an OPATA certified instructor for police and it happened in a class. Instead of pushing the gun down into the holster to unload the latch, he pulled the gun up into the latch. That pressure prevented the latch from releasing when it was pressed. Then he tried pumping the gun in and out of the holster while trying to coordinate pressing on the latch and releasing the gun. When he finally got the timing right he was so far behind the curve that his finger entered the trigger guard as the gun came out and tripped the trigger on his Glock and he shot himself in the leg.
He apparently did what one of our club members did during a duty gun match but at a higher speed than our member. Our club member could be seen struggling with the latch while pushing down and pulling up on the gun. Fortunately, it was a league match and par time so he had the time to get it right without the drama of shooting himself. However, had it been a real gun fight, he would have been running behind his opponent. Once you pull up on the gun to remove it from the holster, if the latch hasn't released first you are in trouble. For any class or competition that requires shorter and shorter time limits, the Serpa is not a good choice.
If you get the timing wrong from the start and it doesn't release the first time, the key is to stop, push the gun into the holster and then press the release. Think of it as a malfunction drill.
Real life has time limits, too. Not sure when a Serpa would be a good choice.
Jim Watson
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I have not seen anybody shoot himself or even the ground with a Serpa, although I think at least some of the reports of it are reliable.
I have seen a cop who had a Serpa for off duty bring it to an IDPA match and give himself a world class wedgie when he forgot the latch, missed the latch, or yanked into the latch before getting it depressed. (That range no longer allows them.)
I have seen a Serpa lock up semi-permanently due to debris under the latch. Sometimes you have to go prone in the dirt.
Bill Jordan kept the plain snap strap of his River holster snapped behind the holster. His position was that it was easier to strap the gun in before you started chasing somebody than it was to unsnap it if you had to shoot him.
I have seen a cop who had a Serpa for off duty bring it to an IDPA match and give himself a world class wedgie when he forgot the latch, missed the latch, or yanked into the latch before getting it depressed. (That range no longer allows them.)
I have seen a Serpa lock up semi-permanently due to debris under the latch. Sometimes you have to go prone in the dirt.
Bill Jordan kept the plain snap strap of his River holster snapped behind the holster. His position was that it was easier to strap the gun in before you started chasing somebody than it was to unsnap it if you had to shoot him.
JTQ
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That is sound wisdom from Bill Jordan.
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