Best large bore for suppressed bolt action?

1stmarine said:

But what about a Mauser carbine?... We better move to a new thread.

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Did somebody say Mauser Carbine?


My 45ACP Rhineland arms conversion. M1903 sporterized stock (not by me), threaded for a suppressor. I have not shot it over a chrony yet. They are working on a .45 Magnum Conversion.

I've got a Savage Hog Hunter in 308. Direct thread Gemtech Dagger, and moly coated Sierra 180gr is effective, and quiet,

Bishop out in CA has just finished up on a 458 SOCOM bolt gun. Not sure if that is the route you want to take. Plenty of projectile choices, 458 will run super or Subs. There are a number of choices for can manufacturers as well.
http://www.bishopammunition.com/default.asp

They don't have them listed on the site yet. You might have to email them to find out the particulars.

If subsonic is your goal, then .458 Socom can be a good choice (as long as you reload). It can be loaded with bullet weights all the way from 100gr aluminum bullet at 3000fps, up to 600 grain bullets that stay subsonic.
Flintknapper uses one in an AR for hog hunting and mentions in his Feral Hog Hunting sticky thread (in the Hunting subforum) that he gets good accuracy with his handloads.

Legionnaire said:

Who did your build? I've heard these can be amazingly quiet.

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Sorry slow response, Curtis from S&H Arms in Owasso, Oklahoma.. He's one of the few that still has the 77/44 on hand.

Darkbob said:

...up to 600 grain bullets that stay subsonic.

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What would be the utility in a 600gr bullet?

CraigC said:

What would be the utility in a 600gr bullet?

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Craig,
didn't you hear that one when a guy goes into a bar and asks for a 300 grain and then the guy next to him asks: I'll take a double of that! lol.

seriously now... I think as important as the grain is the actual terminal construction that is going to take advantage of the extra momentum.
Grain alone might be good or might mean nothing w/o understanding of what the design does. So you bring up a very good point.
I think a 600 grain with a good mushroom is going to hurt. What animal is in the menu? I don't know.
But isn't this also the philosophy of the large caliber air guns. 50 caliber heavy bullets with hollow point that are harvesting large hogs, bison, and what not?

The point I was going to make is that this big bore subsonic rifle concept is relatively new but most lessons learned by handgun hunters over the last 80yrs can be applied. A .45 caliber rifle slug at 1100fps is equivalent to a .45Colt handgun load and handgunners have killed a lot of critters with those loads. I think some folks have the false impression that a 600gr bullet is going to hit harder than a 300gr. It's only true if the quarry is large enough to warrant a 600gr bullet. On critters like deer and average sized hogs, it's a complete waste of good lead. A 300gr is going to exit on those critters so the added weight of a 600gr bullet serves no purpose. It doesn't hit harder, it just goes deeper into the ground after it exits the deer.

CraigC said:

The point I was going to make is that this big bore subsonic rifle concept is relatively new but most lessons learned by handgun hunters over the last 80yrs can be applied. A .45 caliber rifle slug at 1100fps is equivalent to a .45Colt handgun load and handgunners have killed a lot of critters with those loads. I think some folks have the false impression that a 600gr bullet is going to hit harder than a 300gr. It's only true if the quarry is large enough to warrant a 600gr bullet. On critters like deer and average sized hogs, it's a complete waste of good lead. A 300gr is going to exit on those critters so the added weight of a 600gr bullet serves no purpose. It doesn't hit harder, it just goes deeper into the ground after it exits the deer.

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I understand. Soft skin animals at civilized angle shots can only retain so much of that heavy blow. Normally even larger section has more impact in determining how fast the energy can be transferred otherwise will be lost through the back door.

CraigC said:

The point I was going to make is that this big bore subsonic rifle concept is relatively new but most lessons learned by handgun hunters over the last 80yrs can be applied. A .45 caliber rifle slug at 1100fps is equivalent to a .45Colt handgun load and handgunners have killed a lot of critters with those loads. I think some folks have the false impression that a 600gr bullet is going to hit harder than a 300gr. It's only true if the quarry is large enough to warrant a 600gr bullet. On critters like deer and average sized hogs, it's a complete waste of good lead. A 300gr is going to exit on those critters so the added weight of a 600gr bullet serves no purpose. It doesn't hit harder, it just goes deeper into the ground after it exits the deer.

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Agreed, my .458 punched a 405sp clean thru both shoulders of a 600lb cow from about 20yds.
Extra bullet weight might make sense at reduced velocities if really necessary but at that point i think one may have chosen the tool for the application poorly, or its a VERY specialized application. Specially as anything over 350 becomes increasingly more expensive.

And as you stated folks have been doing more with less for quite some time.

What would be the utility in a 600gr bullet?

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The only way you can gain energy once you set a speed limit is mass.

I've never used a 600 grain bullet. My guess on its usefulness (other than increasing penetration) would be if you are going to shoot suppressed in an AR, you can still load to full pressure for cycling reliability. Whereas if you're loading down for the lighter bullets (to keep then subsonic), the pressure necessarily is reduced.

In Flintknapper's thread he mentions that with some 405 grain supersonic bullets that he's had pigs line up so he's killed two with one shot multiple times. Here's a link to a post in his thread where he went for three, killed the first two but only wounded the third. So that could be a time when more penetration may have helped. I love his thread.

(note to say that Flintknapper thinks that the first two pigs changed the trajectory of the bullet, but he still feels confident that the 405 had enough penetration left for the third pig)

CraigC said:

A 300gr is going to exit on those critters so the added weight of a 600gr bullet serves no purpose. It doesn't hit harder, it just goes deeper into the ground after it exits the deer.

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If the bullet goes through, there's a problem in bullet design considering the intended purpose. Sufficient diameter and expansion ensure that all the energy and momentum is transferred to the animal. At subsonic velocities there's little hydrodynamic shock so the largest caliber, sufficiently quickly expanding bullet design is the ideal choice. Bullets designed for supersonic and hypersonic impact velocities usually just plow through.

jmorris said:

The only way you can gain energy once you set a speed limit is mass.

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But to what end?

Darkbob said:

I've never used a 600 grain bullet. My guess on its usefulness (other than increasing penetration) would be if you are going to shoot suppressed in an AR, you can still load to full pressure for cycling reliability. Whereas if you're loading down for the lighter bullets (to keep then subsonic), the pressure necessarily is reduced.

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I don't know the first thing about making an AR run with these cartridges so that's an aspect I had not considered.

hq said:

If the bullet goes through, there's a problem in bullet design considering the intended purpose. Sufficient diameter and expansion ensure that all the energy and momentum is transferred to the animal. At subsonic velocities there's little hydrodynamic shock so the largest caliber, sufficiently quickly expanding bullet design is the ideal choice. Bullets designed for supersonic and hypersonic impact velocities usually just plow through.

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You're applying high velocity smallbore logic where it isn't relevant. And this whole notion of "energy transfer" is nonsense. Energy doesn't kill critters, bullets creating tissue damage do that and a bullet that passes through creates more damage than one that does not. It may also break structural bones on the way out and that is also significant.

A big bore doesn't need to expand and getting a bullet to expand AND penetrate adequately at subsonic velocities is problematic at best. In handguns, it's difficult to achieve that at 1400fps, let alone 1050fps. Which is why cast bullets have gained so much favor. A good flat nosed SWC or LBT design creates a large wound channel and penetrates very well. Negating the need for expanding jacketed bullets.

The 77/44's are interesting, or at least became so when I learned that the magazine was long enough for the 320gr WLN. That's a pretty capable bullet that would be fine for anything up to moose and brown bears. They have the 1-20" twist rate to stabilize anything you'd want to stuff in them.

The 77/44's are interesting, or at least became so when I learned that the magazine was long enough for the 320gr WLN.

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The same reason it became interesting once you found it would not only work with the 240 grain bullets but a 320gr as well is likely pretty close to the reason(s) why people are interested in a round that works with 600 grain bullets.

CraigC said:

You're applying high velocity smallbore logic where it isn't relevant.

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Wrong assumption. I am most certainly not. There are two ways of kinetic energy and momentum to transfer from projectile to tissue: pressure transfer and tissue resistance. Both create tissue damage; hydrodynamic shock from impact velocity ie. temporary would channel and the projectile itself destroying tissue cells traveling through tissue ie. permanent wound channel. There were a couple of lengthy threads on the subject last year, I'd recommend using the search function and reading them properly through. I went into quite bit of detail in subsonic terminal wound ballistics with scientific terms and principles and the laws of physics haven't most likely changed since. At least they haven't during the thirty odd years I've hunted extensively with subsonic loads.

Legionnaire said:

So, hq, what are your favorite subsonic hunting loads?

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Of centerfire cartridges mainly .45ACP and .44Spl/Mag 300gr handloads, 750-1000gr(+) cast low linotype 12ga handloads through a rifled slug shotgun and occasionally some factory loads like Lapua .308 200gr subsonic. It depends vastly on the game and situation; only short shooting distances or need for supersonic longer shots or shots at driven, running game during the same hunt and so on. If I started from scratch and followed the original poster's guidelines, I'd probably choose .45 Colt and experiment with 300gr and heavier, possibly custom casting molds. Its case capacity is favorable for developing accurate subsonic loads with long, heavy bullets. His request of 200 yards is quite a stretch for subsonics in any case, even with proper shot planning and a good rangefinder.

But all this is just my point of view. YMMV.

If you're about to have barrel work done anyway, why not go custom and have a bolt action with similar rim and case diameter rebarreled with a suppressed .45 barrel? On the other hand the bullet diameter difference to .44 is negligible and you already have the dies so 77/44 isn't a bad alternative at all. No game animal can live on the difference, that's for sure.

jmorris said:

The same reason it became interesting once you found it would not only work with the 240 grain bullets but a 320gr as well is likely pretty close to the reason(s) why people are interested in a round that works with 600 grain bullets.

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I don't know, that was never fully answered. I am under no delusion that a 320gr bullet is going to be more effective on deer sized game than a 240gr. Because I would apply the 320gr to larger critters, as I already said.

I will go ahead and say that speaking of terminal ballistics (ignoring issues pertaining to the AR gas system), there's no reason whatsoever to use a 600gr bullet in ANY .458 caliber cartridge. It's at least 100gr beyond the point of diminishing returns. A 300gr will work beautifully for any deer-sized game up to elk and a 400-420gr will be ideal for anything bigger.