The P320: your gun handling skills are the problem

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More than just fingers can get caught in the trigger of a glock while holstering. Safety devices exist as a backup for the situations we can't control as well.

As for always keeping it in a holster, what about these dumb *curse word* state laws about not carry concealed on school grounds? Every time I have to go pick up my kids the gun legally must be stowed in my car until I get back to it. Situations can't always be controlled.

My solution to a similar type issue (required daily post office trips) was a paddle or single clip style holster (depending on iwb or owb), not so comfortable but a kydex single clip meant the whole holster can slip on and off and keep me from having to unholster 3 times a day.
 
Sig taking a hit and potentially losing the military contract

Lol, have you seen the F-35 program lately? It takes a lot to lose a military contract.

Let's put this in a better context for military firearms procurement contracts: "You’re not a S.E.A.L. ‘till you have eaten Italian steel…”
 
My solution to a similar type issue (required daily post office trips) was a paddle or single clip style holster (depending on iwb or owb), not so comfortable but a kydex single clip meant the whole holster can slip on and off and keep me from having to unholster 3 times a day.

I went with the Safariland QRS system a while back and couldn't be happier. Same holster moves form platform to platform and comes off easy enough when I have to go into places the gun can't follow.
 
The Popular Mechanics also states that there had been four accidental discharges with P320s by law enforcement. What Tom Taylor, Executive Vice-President for Commerical Sales for SIG was quoted as saying is that he was aware of three AD incidents in LE channels and one additional AD in the commercial market, although the last had not been "formally reported to SIG" (which suggests that the other three definitely had been formally reported to SIG), and that all of these had occurred in the last year.

No, the article mentions negligent discharges with no clarification as to whether or not those discharges were due to the pistol being dropped.

From the PM article ... which shows that the idiot author can't even quote someone correctly!!

"For its part, Sig notes that it has sold 500,000 P320s since their introduction in 2014, with only four reported negligent discharges by law enforcement."

Taylor doesn't use the terms accidental or negligent and doesn't explicitly state the discharges were due to the pistol bring dropped. He states ...

"I want to put this perspective. Since it’s introduction in 2014, they’ve sold around 500,000 P320s. There are three recorded cases of unintended discharges in LE channels . There is one additional commercial incident which I am familiar with but was not formally reported to SIG. That’s four known incidents from 500,000 weapons, many of which are used on a daily basis. Additionally, those incidents have all been within the last year.doesn't explicity state that the Here's a well-written article about this issue."

Here's the only decent article about this issue that I've read so far.

http://soldiersystems.net/2017/08/0...-unaffected-announces-voluntary-p320-upgrade/
 
So I guess some are ignorant of the huge lawsuits Taurus is facing because some of their models go bang when dropped.

We ought not confuse our idea of how the liability issues should be with the reality of how they really are.

I'm a Sig fan, and if I were on a jury, I think I'd be slow to award damages to plaintiffs who dropped their gun through negligence. But the average juror is gonna think differently from me.

If I owned a Sig P320, I would probably keep it and not worry too much about it, taking the same level of care not to drop that as any other (lots).
 
So I guess some are ignorant of the huge lawsuits Taurus is facing because some of their models go bang when dropped.

We ought not confuse our idea of how the liability issues should be with the reality of how they really are.

I'm a Sig fan, and if I were on a jury, I think I'd be slow to award damages to plaintiffs who dropped their gun through negligence. But the average juror is gonna think differently from me.

If I owned a Sig P320, I would probably keep it and not worry too much about it, taking the same level of care not to drop that as any other (lots).

I am also a fan of Sigs but were I on that Jury and Sig had marketed the 320 as drop safe, then they'd be in trouble from me.

Just as anyone who marketed a safety feature that doesn't work as advertised.
 
I am also a fan of Sigs but were I on that Jury and Sig had marketed the 320 as drop safe, then they'd be in trouble from me.

Just as anyone who marketed a safety feature that doesn't work as advertised.

Was it marketed as "drop safe" or having passed certain specific drop tests?
 
Was it marketed as "drop safe" or having passed certain specific drop tests?

Thats why I said IF it had been marketed as such. I do not know myself bit I'm sure it would come up during the trial.

If it wasn't, or only guaranteed for a specific test, different story. One would assume drop safe would be a requirement for PD adoption, but you never do know and logic so often fails on these things.
 
One good thing that may result is better testing by all firearm manufacturers for this specific issue. Preferably without government intervention.
We can do the battle of the brand names on this forum but to a large percentage of the people a handgun is a handgun. If one goes of when dropped then they all must.
 
there are many reasons a gun might be dropped that have nothing to do with gun handling skills or negligence on the part of the carrier.

Like a soldier or Marine being shot by an enemy in combat, or a law enforcement officer being shot by a suspect?
 
Lol, have you seen the F-35 program lately? It takes a lot to lose a military contract.

Let's put this in a better context for military firearms procurement contracts: "You’re not a S.E.A.L. ‘till you have eaten Italian steel…”

So the graft and corruption only go one way? I've worked in the aerospace industry a number of years ago and we built several types of sophisticated laser guided ordinance for the Army, Navy, and Marines including cruise missiles and other "top secret stuff". You better believe programs got cancelled for poor/substandard performance.

What is state-of-the-art then is easliy obsolete today including F anything. When today's scalar weaponry deployed from air, land, and sea can render sophisticated jets a pile rubble?

A rather insignificant pistol contract? If Steyr wins their lawsuit...we'll see what happens.

M
 
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You better believe programs got cancelled for poor/substandard performance.

You seem to miss the point that the M17 is not effected by the current P320 problems and that the proposed "fix" for the P320s problem is to bring them up to M17 standard. A point which, if you do have design an manufacturing experience you would know sure as heck wasn't suddenly decided upon two days ago. SIG has probably been planning to upgrade civilian production to M17 standard ever since the contract was won in order to simplify production.

If Steyr wins their lawsuit...we'll see what happens.

What does that have to do with anything? SIG is under contract to produce X amount of product for Y dollars. .mil doesn't give two hoots about the lawsuit as long as SIG can meet their contractual obligations.
 
Yes, it actually was. Marketing materials from Sig said:

"...designed safety elements into every necessary feature on this pistol. From the trigger, to the striker and even the magazine, the P320 won’t fire unless you want it to."

https://www.sigsauer.com/edu/meet-the-p320/

I dunno, I could totally see Chow Yun-fat starring in a John Woo movie where he tosses down the SIG of a bad guy he disarms in order to get the gun to fire up and shoot another bad guy through the face. Maybe that's what it is. SIG could patent this Woo feature. It's not unsafe to drop, it's deadly to throw.
 
...if you are worried about dropping a P320, then the real issue and what is being admitted is that you will drop guns at all.

Eh. I don't buy it. Some guns are more drop safe than others. A Colt SAA will fire if dropped in the same way, and you have all six loaded, but progress marches on. That was 1873, this is 2017. Today it is not unreasonable to expect a new design to be drop-safe, and from all angles.

I think my gun handling's pretty good. I haven't dropped any guns (but, as they say, the day is young ;) ). I offer no excuses for designs that perform below the state of the art. More drop-resistance is better than less; I commend SIG's decision to upgrade the affected pistols for free.
 
Night vision is cool and all but something that gets missed when you play Call of Duty is the loss of depth perception. I can remember my first time out with night vision in SOI, I got my feet tangled up and tripped cause I wasn't used to interpreting distance from a two dimensional image. I crashed down hard on my SAW. Point is, if we are talking issued gear here, it needs to be designed with the acknowledgement that it's not going to be used on the square range. Anybody who has never trained for combat or a dynamic defensive encounter with a firearm can say they will never be dropped. But the reality is that duty guns get the crapped beat out of them. If there is a way for them to fail mechanically and discharge upon being dropped or hit in a certain manner, that is a problem that needs to be addressed. It sounds like SIG is addressing the issue, as I would expect them too. So I don't see what all the noise is about.

On one occasion I was running down some railroad tracks and one of the ties shifted and caught my foot. Again I spilled out pretty hard on the tracks and my Glock 20 bounced out of the holster and came to a rest facing me about two feet in front of me. I've also slipped on some wet rocks and crashed down on top of a M700. Crap happens in the field. If you've never dropped a gun, you probably haven't done very much with a gun.

Note I am fine with not having a mechanical safety. I love my Glock. It is also 100% drop proof by design. There is a difference I think between relying on a mechanical safety to excuse poor gun handling and having an actual mechanical failure.
 
I think it's about blind loyalty.

I think there is that. Sig fans poo pooing a serious safety issue [see opening post] also grinds some folks.

Sig offering the "voluntary upgrade" settles it for me, unless they make folks pay for it. That would be uncool.

I do like the 320 and wish it success, it just doesn't offer me anything my Glocks can't do, else I'd own a couple.
 
(My best Chester on Gunsmoke impersonation)

I still ain't a gonna pack me no SAA with more than five of them newfangled ca'triges in it, and shore am gonna mail back that newfangled SIG thing so as they fix it, just in case I gets butter-fingered some time.
 
While I was joking, here's the reality.

1) The Sig Military model of the 320 that won the DOD contract had a 1911 style tab safety. The consumer version was not drop tested to get the military contract. It is clear that the consumer version doesn't meet the same standard of safety. What effect this will have on the DOD contract I have no idea, I suspect unless they revisit the testing and find new issues it won't have any. OTOH, this WILL effect the LE contract business.

2) Sig did not handle this right PERIOD. The idea of strong denial, followed by the "isolated cases line," followed by the oops we need a voluntary no cost recall is reminiscent of the Clintons MOD. Here is copy on Sigs website today!
Safety isn’t negotiable. The P320 maximizes peace of mind with a robust safety system. Never again will you need to pull the trigger to disassemble your pistol. And, while available as an option, you won’t need a tabbed trigger safety for your gun to be drop safe.

3) While other companies have had issues and some recalls, for the most part, they deal with safety issues promptly and with apology. True, Glock has had some issues with roll outs, but none that were safety issues if the gun was used as recommended.

4) The OP is dead wrong with the idea that a firearm marketed as a duty gun for LE should never be dropped. As someone who worked in LE supply I can assure you it is a serious issue in LE and one of the first safety issues departments examine when choosing a firearm. One of the main reasons the FBI chose Glock is that it passed one of the most strenuous drop test from any agency with flying colors.
 
3) While other companies have had issues and some recalls, for the most part, they deal with safety issues promptly and with apology. True, Glock has had some issues with roll outs, but none that were safety issues if the gun was used as recommended.

And yet ....

GLOCK
MODEL 19,
9MM LUGER CALIBER, PISTOL


WARNING: This make and model pistol may have the potential for an UNINTENTIONAL DISCHARGE of a cartridge with the action open.

The Glock, model 19 pistol slide has a bottom protrusion, whose function is to push cartridges from the top of the magazine into the chamber . When the pistol is jammed in a double feed situation, the slide protrusion can come in contact with the primer of the jammed cartridge and cause UNINTENTIONAL DISCHARGE while the action is open.

Glock, Inc.
6000 Highlands Parkway
Smyrna, GA 30082
(770) 432-1202


Source:
  • AFTE Journal, July 1993; Volume 25, Number 3:206-208
 
Did... you just source a warning from 1993?

Are they referring to the extractor claw as the "little tab"? Interesting, Ill have to look at my Glock again.

Then again, a FMJ jammed into the primer of a double feed might cause an AD itself, best to be real careful with a live ammo jam.
 
MCMX, Seriously you're comparing a safety warning about handling a firearm with a double feed jam to a firearm that in normal operating conditon has a safety issue? I don't suspect there are many firearms that shouldn't be handeled very carefully when in a double jam. Never experienced one with my Glocks, but I have with 1911's I've owned. Again Sig is bragging TODAY on their web page that their 320 will "never need a tabbed safety for your gun to be drop safe". I consider that irresponsible at best, Sig still hasn't owned this, and I hope that it doesn't take some court to force them too.

Sig makes some great guns, I consider the P2022 to be a steal, the Sig 226, M1, 239 are fine firearms and their 1911's are good values. Not every hit is a homerun, and it appears the Sig 320 still needs some refinement before it's the Glock killer that it is proclaimed to be.
 
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