mousegun caliber question

MedWheeler said:

My guess is that an overwhelming majority are LE situations ...

The BG that targets a citizen who then fires on him (with any caliber) knows that simply breaking off gives him a far greater chance of not getting dead or locked up, so off he goes. His original target isn't likely to pursue while radio-calling for many more armed citizens to join in ...

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Michael Tinker Pearce said:

]I wouldn't recommend it to anyone else, but does that matter? I'm comfortable with it because while it is undeniably anemic I know I can quickly put the rounds where I want them, and that's the important thing ...

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I agree with MedWheeler up there, dealing with a victim is way different than deal with a cop. Even a win does you no good if the victim puts a .22 into your butt -- you have to go to the hospital to get it out. That leads to a bunch of difficult questions from a cop in the ER.

That being said, knowing its limitations, I feel very comfortable using my .32 ACP Tomcat as an EDC. It’s reliable and I can hit with it, and that is more important to me than raw horsepower (YMMV).

I agree that the .32 ACP not a "man-stopper", but it has its place — especially if you can hit your target more than one, two, or five times.

Since a .32 ACP is not going expand reliably, or impart hydrostatic shock, I figure an FMJ round is going to cause the same damage as stabbing the attacker with an 8 inch phillips screwdriver.

A screwdriver to the thigh is not going to stop a determined thug, but I’d much prefer to run from one who has a deep hole in his leg, than run from one who is in perfect condition.

Likewise, having to tangle with a violent criminal who has three screwdriver-sized holes in his chest is a better proposition than having to engage one who is intact.

This little .380 is pretty much all I carry anymore. It is light and reliable and shoot able at SD ranges. The extended magazine is a win-win.

It is not my favorite handgun. It is not my favorite caliber.
It is easy to carry.....so it is always there.
Like a good friend, it ain't perfect, but it's always there.

The best mouse gun for defensive purposes I've ever owned is an LCP Ruger. I did have a problem with mine, but I sent it back and they fixed it properly. It's worked great since. Surprisingly accurate given the cartridge to size or weight ratio. You could go with some sort of .32 auto or a .22, but why when there are LCP's? Not a target pistol, but the recoil is decent enough to practice for proficiency. Mine is the original which I prefer to the current models.

20 years ago I worked where carry was a felony, I still can't carry at work.
I am still limited to a pocket 380 if wearing work clothes like dress pants & tucked in shirt before / after work, I can't carry better.

However, 20 years ago I was content to carry a pocket 380 as my primary pistol when I could have done better, non-work days.
My lackadaisical attitude was based on "Something is better than nothing" and I would have defended it on a gun forum.

20 years ago, my wife carried a 38 snub, when / if she carried; now, she carries consistently, a Beretta PX4 compact.
If I said, "Hey honey you are just going to the store - why not carry a 38 snub instead of your Beretta" she would look at me like I'm stupid.

When I can carry better than a pocket 380 I do, it would be unethical for me not to try to encourage others to do the same.
It would be untruthful for me to say, "You are carrying a pocket gun, good job" when I do not consider the same sufficient for myself (non-work).

Readyrod said:

Ok so I'm thinking maybe the best strategy would be .380 semi auto minimum, but larger is better.
A while ago I read up about shootouts and, while I know it's not exactly the same thing as self defense, I was amazed at the amount of ammo they went through. Which would point to a semi auto as a good choice seeing as it is easy to change magazines.

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Here are two resources:

How many hits required to stop an attacker on average, obtained from actual incidents:
https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
Note 2.3 - 2.4 rounds of 9mm/40 on average required to incapacitate attacker - basically 3 rounds.

Post #3 assumes 3 hits to stop attacker, reasonable based on average actual results, above.
Police officers average less than 50% hits in shootings "service" size pistols, not pocket guns.
A 60% hit rate would be better than police averages, optimistic for a pocket gun.
Odds of 100% success assuming 3 hits required and a 60% hit rate is between 10-11 rounds.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=589332
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=589332
I want my chance for success (survival) to be as much of 100% as possible.
Based on actual results and realistic data, 10 rounds in magazine is a logical minimum.

In restrictive states, (NY, CA, MA) anti-gunners call 10 round mag limit "commonsense"
Yea, a "commonsense" minimum, even anti-gunners think 10 rounds may be required for SD.
Ironically on a gun forum some rationalize less.

Readyrod said:

Thanks for the replies folks.
From what I see on the net the .380 is hard on the hands but the .32 is easier. How do they compare in kick and stopping power?

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Depends on the gun. I have a blowback .32 ACP*, a locked breech .32 ACP**, and a locked breech .380 ACP*** pocket guns. My blowback .32ACP pocket gun has more felt recoil and is harder to shoot than my locked breech .380 pocket gun. The locked breech .32 is the softest shooter of the three of them.

*NAA Guardian
**Taurus TCP 732
***Remington RM380

I've carried the same trusty 10 round mag armalaser equipped p32 for years

While I firmly believe the current crop of locked breach micro 380's would be better served as a 32 the market has spoken and 32 ammo availability and selection straight up sucks nowadays and is why I am legitimately considering stepping up to a slightly larger 380 in the hopes I may retain some of the smooth manners my P32 has

As a Pocket gun enthusiast that shoots one each weekend, and after owing 4 LCP's, I found the Pico and became a huge fan. Amazing how mild/Pleasant shooting this gun is. Really no need to think about a 32.cal. And have to say it has been totally reliable and shoots just about everything. One of the Best concealed in Class. Shoots Plus P or HOT ammo better than most pocket guns shoot regular ammo. Built Solid with every part stainless steel except the modular Grip. The Kahr, is also a very Mild shooting gun as well. A little finicky on certain ammo, but still a very nice well constructed Pocket gun.

Jeb Stuart said:

As a Pocket gun enthusiast that shoots one each weekend

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I shoot my lcp weekly also. I am striving to get better with this tiny gun. I have learned that there is one particular ammo that cannot be trusted.( in my gun at least)
I would caution my thr friends if they are relying on the particular ammo.
I don't want to mention any names...but it's initials are ...Hornady Critical Defense ....
Within the last 30 days I had a primer failure.....:

...and this evening, I had a round that failed to exit a liter bottle filled with water at a distance of seven (7) yds.

After my practice session, I was picking up the dead liter bottles and I heard one rattle. This bullet was inside.

All my critical defense ammo is being used up on the practice range after this. I'm done with it.
My magazines are loaded with PMC fmj until I find a reliable replacement hp.

Readyrod said:

So I've been checking mouseguns recently and I have a caliber question. Which do you all think would be better, relatively many small rounds, say 5x.22 in a NAA revolver, or a few larger rounds, like 2x45acp in a bonds arms derringer. I'm just wondering pros and cons. The situation is for self defense. If you want to mention the small 9mm's go ahead, though I'm more interested in the many small rounds vs a few larger

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I'd go with the many small rounds. A derringer in a higher caliber can be punishing.
Bear in mind barrel length, and overall gun size, weight and grip. If you feel inclined
to go with a larger caliber, try before you buy.

Armored farmer said:

View attachment 761572
This little .380 is pretty much all I carry anymore. It is light and reliable and shoot able at SD ranges. The extended magazine is a win-win.

It is not my favorite handgun. It is not my favorite caliber.
It is easy to carry.....so it is always there.
Like a good friend, it ain't perfect, but it's always there.

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So which one of those zucchinis was the leader of that rough-looking group?

481 said:

So which one of those zucchinis was the leader of that rough-looking group?

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Does it matter?
If you ride with a squash, you get buried with a squash....or in this case....

...get eaten.

Life is short.

Armored farmer said:

Does it matter?
If you ride with a squash, you get buried with a squash....or in this case....
View attachment 762329
...get eaten.

Life is short.
View attachment 762330

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Well your egg-layers (Golden Comets?) appear to be enjoying themselves. Guess you'll see more eggs if they are happy with you.

The squash...eh...not so much. They probably deserved it.

481 said:

(Golden Comets?

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Indeed they are... Mrs farmer's project for '17. It has been successful.

The squash?
Biodegradable and sustainable targets, lol.
I should sell the seed as such.

LCP with the Hogue grip and Magguts is pretty great...7+1 in a tiny package. NAA is also carried by rarely as a primary unless I can't conceal anything bigger.

I am hearing more and more about issues with Hornady CD and primer strikes. I do have a a few boxes left, but the Pico's I own hit hard on the primer so that is not a problem. However, the power factor going slower than FPS on certain rounds is scary. My Pico seems to eat any ammo I have ever feed it and has no Problem with Plus P or hot ammo. I. I have a lot of Fiocchi "Extrema" that I like a lot and so does the gun. Today I ordered Precision One Plus P defense load and a box of the standard Defense load. The Pico shoots Plus P milder than most Pocket guns shoot regular range ammo, so hoping this works out.

What do I think? Think I would love to own one. I have only handled one, the build quality looks awesome. I have not shot one, but have been asking range buddies for years. It would however be hard to beat the Pico is my guess. But for true Pocket gun lovers, you would have to appreciate it. Now you got my itch going again. (By the way, fell so much in love with the Pico, I bought a second one.) I use one for range and one for carry. Both go through any ammo like a sewing making.

Yes, I would love to own a Seecamp, but my gosh they are expensive. But hey, all stainless steel, top quality etc. Great Machining. Since I have two Pico's, I think I would try the 32.cal even though I understand the 380 Seacamp is mild to shoot, Small But seems to weigh about the same as the Pico.

Readyrod said:

So what do you all think of the seecamp mouseguns?

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They are the original and trim version of my NAA Guardian .32 ACP.

Neat little blowback guns that are hard to get a good grip when firing compared to the slightly larger polymer .380 pocket gun class. If it slips in your hand under recoil, the gun won't cycle the slide properly.

I tried a pair of the tiny Diamondback's One in 9MM, the other a .380. I found the 9 MM is tougher on the hand a difficult to hit with. The .380 is very accurate and nice to shoot. But I did have to send it back as it jammed when I got it. Now it working just fine. I would think the small size of the NAA or derringer would make them difficult to shoot. Like most others I would go .380 or 9 MM.

Recently bought two boxes of" PrecisionONE" ammo. Of course ShootingtheBull rated it very highly for self defense, so I bought a box of the standard load and a box of the Plus P. How did the ammo perform on target? For My Pico's it was the most accurate 380 ammo I have shot and it was extremely mild. Really could not tell much difference in the Plus P vs the standard load. Take the fact that the Pico is one of the most mild mannered/soft shooting 380's on the market and then use this ammo in PlusP, seems to be a ideal combination. And since the all stainless Steel Pico is designed for Plus P or hot ammo just makes it the perfect choice for my Personal Pocket guns.
I do not shoot LCP's any longer after owing four of them, but will take the one I do have and shoot the standard load to see how it performs. I would not advise to use plusP in the LCP's or any other aluminum chassis 380 even though the felt recoil was mild. But at this point highly recommend PrecisionOne. They come in a box of 50rd. Total for a hundred rounds was approx.$75.00.

"I don't want to mention any names...but it's initials are ...Hornady Critical Defense ...."

Strangely I have seen 3 misfires with hornady ammo. 1 shotshell, 1 30-30 round, and 1 357 Leverevolution. I will never carry Hornady ammo.

Speedo66 said:

If I'm in an adrenaline fueled situation, the last thing I'd want to do is to start trying to thumb back small hammers, release safeties, etc. There is a lot to be said for small DA revolvers and external safety-less autos that you just pull the trigger and repeat.

For me, the Ruger LCP fits the bill for size, capacity, action, reliability, power, and price. There are those who will complain about the recoil, noise, etc., but as anybody who hunts knows, if you are in a situation where you need it, you probably won't even feel anything when it goes off or even hear it.

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It all depends on your training, I trained for many years with 1911's and BHP's, so a safety doesn't seem to slow me down much. My main match pistols are a Sig X6 and a pair of EAA Witness Match's, all single action with a safety.

Yes, you will notice the recoil, because it was uncomfortable to practice a lot the vast majority of people won't, so they won't be as accurate or as fast as they could be.

I don't mind the plastic wonders guns, I have a lot of them including a Walther PPS I carry most frequently because it's very slim and carries well.

Readyrod said:

So I've been checking mouseguns recently and I have a caliber question. Which do you all think would be better, relatively many small rounds, say 5x.22 in a NAA revolver, or a few larger rounds, like 2x45acp in a bonds arms derringer. I'm just wondering pros and cons. The situation is for self defense. If you want to mention the small 9mm's go ahead, though I'm more interested in the many small rounds vs a few larger ones topic.
Thanks.
And yea it's been a while since I posted but I have been lurking.

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I have a NAA 22 WMR. Great gun. It's shootable and highly functional. It's more than capable out to 7-10 yards, point shooting. 5 rounds is no slouch, and it has by report adequate penetration to 12-13 inches from what I have read.

Derringers are unpleasant to shoot. They have a limited capacity. For the size, I'd rather have a J frame or Kimber K6S revolver.

There's even derringers that shoot 7.69x39mm. The AK Micro pistol. No thanks.

Your choice should be based upon your time and ability to train as they're tricky to shoot accurately. The NAA is a backup to my Kimber K6S. My primary is a Glock 19 MOS with an RMR.