25 acp or other mouse calibers!

What's your caliber choice in pocket size carry guns?

Unkei said:

... I spent many hours in the morgue..and can tell you from ACTUAL experience that small calibers can...and will do the job. ...

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Of course they will ... but I think that the real question, relative to "mouse calibers", is how quickly will they eliminate the Threat.

I have a bathroom in my bedroom. It's small 5'x4', just a toilet, a sink and a spittoon. If you attack me in my bathroom, you will be shot with a Titian Tiger 25 Auto.

LOL.... might sound like a rant, but there is wisdom to be found in it.

A civilian defending himself has a task that is very different from a police officer.

The civilian just has to make himself an uninviting target. The bad guy does not want a fight. He wants an easy victim. Best stats I can find indicate that if you are accosted and produce a firearm, 93% of the time your attacker will flee. So only 7% of the time does your choice of cartridge matter.

A police officer has to catch, subdue, and haul into jail a bad guy who really, really doesn't want to go, and who may choose to shoot at the officer rather than submit.

All that said, my car gun is a 41 Mag and my main HD gun is 45 ACP.

Personally, I have better choices available, but my little Ruger SR22 loaded with Velocitors beats the heck out of a sharp stick or a tube of pepper spray (which I also keep handy).

According to the internet, I whistle past graveyards on a daily basis. If I am going out in the woods, I generally keep a .357 on my person. If I am going downtown after dark (which is very rare), I carry full size 9mm. Any other day at the office, I carry nothing bigger than a .380. As of late, the little NAA in .22 mag I picked up has been making the rounds because it prints less and fits in my shirt pocket.

The internet has a way of scaring the bejeezus out of people. Can you be attacked/need to draw our gun? Certainly. Would we maybe hope we were packing a hi capacity .45 and/or howitzer should that happen? I'm going to say, yeah, probably. Will carrying something smaller than a 9mm spell our immediate doom? Not without a fight, I would hope. Still, according to the net, the world is filled with vicious scary things that we must arm ourselves against. Never mind keeping your head on a swivel or even just rolling the dice and hoping for the best. Cowboy up, strap on, dress around your piece or risk paying the consequences.

Currently, as I sit here, I have a new 1873 SAA on my hip...but that's just because I'm breaking in a new holster for it. My LCP II is in pieces soaking up some oil as I clean it after today's lunchtime range visit. If a vicious ninja were to back flip into here with murderous intent, 5 shots of .22 mag would be all I have to roll with. I'm OK with that. Weather Man only predicted a 10% chance of ninja attack today. I don't think we're due for any more than 20% Meth-Bear the rest of the week. Winter is due to be mild, so that means the zombies won't freeze over until January, but that's OK. They'll act as an early warning alarm of the impending North Korean backed ISIS fighters belly-crawling up from Mexico

I'm making light of and over-simplifying, I know. I'm just joking around, because these threads never end well anyway. I don't fault anyone for taking it upon himself to carry larger more powerful pistol as an EDC. It's certainly not a bad idea. In some parts of the country is may very well be the BEST idea. However, some of us are just cosmic gamblers. The day they find my stiff corpse gutted in the street of my Mayberry-esque town, empty .22 mag clutched in my frozen death grip, my crudely painted final words penned on the pavement in my own blood, "If only...a .45!" You have my full permission for the longest, loudest "I told you so!"

My most common concealed carry rounds are .22 Mag, .32 Auto and .38 S&W (not Special).

I'm currently carrying a .25 acp Berretta 21, and an NAA .22 mag as backup. I'm sure all of the testosterone filled youngsters are gong to tell me how under armed I am.

But, the .25 acp is about the heaviest handgun I want to use right now with regards to both weight and recoil. So, it's either use one of my many, yea, I like little handguns, "mouse" guns or nothing.

Judging what others carry based on your situation is a sign of someone needing a bit more age and/or experience. In case you haven't learned, there is no one size fits all in life.

My Brother in Law who knew nothing of guns purchased a 25 Auto shortly after he and my sister separated. He was emotionally devastated with his marriage going down in flames and very depressed.
He went into the mountains outside of Colorado Springs where he put the gun into his mouth and went to see Jesus. One shot, killed himself.
A 25 cal may be a mouse gun but it kills men also.

Best stats I can find indicate that if you are accosted and produce a firearm, 93% of the time your attacker will flee. So only 7% of the time does your choice of cartridge matter.

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It's actually more like 99.999% flight, according to research by John Lott and others. Those studies indicate that defensive-gun-uses occur anywhere from half a million to nearly two million times a year in this country. I doubt there are more than a couple of thousand defensive shootings, fatal or not, in which one or more attackers are actuallly hit.

The numbers are so imprecise largely because a huge percentage of people using firearms in self-defense do not report the incidents (usually due to downplaying the incident's severity or, more commonly, being afraid of prosecution.) As mentioned, would-be attackers, by a very strong ruling majority, flee from the possibility of getting shot. Even those "hopped up" on whatever the latest methylethylbadcrap is are still so skittish that they, too, run from guns and/or gunfire (as that same strong rule.)

Now, one could read that as that even an unloaded gun, or a replica thereof, would suffice and, indeed, it would in an overwhelming majority of cases. But, we prepare for "the worst" the best we reasonably can, or as much as we choose to do so. Few of us have sprinkler systems and SCBA in our homes for fire emergencies, or drive around in up-armored vehicles with on-board fire suppression systems (while wearing crash helmets.) I've seen more than my fare share of people who leave the gun show in a $1000 beater, despite the fact that they won't carry anything that costs less than that, or is chambered in anything smaller than .45 caliber.

All that being said, I still go for larger calibers nearly all the time. The main part of the reason for that is not that I don't trust the caliber to stop a threat against me, it's that I don't trust myself, as a former lawman, not to try to stop a threat against others as well (this is just how I am, and discussion on its prudence is NOT the subject of this thread.) I support the idea that any armed citizen increases his or her edge as he or she increases the effectiveness of their hardware of choice, and I apply that philosophy to myself, to what I consider is a reasonable degree.

Unkei wrote:
Feel free to flame me here.

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No flame here.

Carried a 25 ACP long before concealed carry was as accessible as it is today. Twice found myself in situations where I thought I needed to use it, but as I produced the gun, my assailants decided they had other matters to attend to.

It's my belief that those who belittle the 25 ACP are not familiar with it. I picked up a 25 ACP Raven in 1995 because I couldn't say no to the $25. price when the LGS where it got traded in didn't even want to display it for sale. Out of curiosity I shot various objects with it thinking it was an underpowered pipsqueak and came away realizing that I had the wrong impression of it. While I wouldn't consider it for my own personal carry (unless it was the only thing I had) I still discovered that it's more than what most people say it is and could still easily ruin someone's day. Plus, like hdwhit and MedWheeler mentioned; the very act of pulling a pistol out will often make criminals change their plans.

Funny how people remember John Moses Browning and the 45 ACP but don’t realize he also invented the 25 ACP

It isn’t my first choice for self defense but I have never heard of anyone who would volunteer to prove how weak it is by being shot with one

Before the P32 and P3AT came out I'd accept the .25ACP in guns like the Baby Browning and Beretta Jetfire as the "have a gun" role filler. But now no way. If you need a super small gun get one of these little .380ACP pistols. They are flatter, lighter, and significantly more powerful than any of the little .25ACP pistols.

I've retired my .25ACP pistols to novelty status once guns like the P32 and P3AT cane out -- these days when I don't feel I need to carry a gun I stick my S&W BodyGuard 380 in a pocket.

There is a story about a barber in New Jersey. Some "perp" came in his barber shop and
held him up with a .25 auto. The barber told him to "beat it". The "perp" emptied his magazine
into the barber. The barber beat on the "perp" until he almost killed him. The barber healed
up nicely. The "perp" went to the hospital for quite some time then jail for a long time.
Zeke

I can tell you two situations with .25’s

I have a friend that had a .25 and decided to target shoot a little. He had an old tote like you use to store household stuff. It was cracked on one side so he used the other side as a target. Shot it three times at about ten feet.

At the third shot, he felt something sting his leg. The bullet was laying there. None had penetrated the plastic

Maybe four years ago I was driving a local county road after dark. Came up on two cars with the flashers on. A deer was laying in the road with three lags broken, hit by one of the cars

Guys says “I’ll put it down”. So he gets his .25acp and puts it directly against the deers head. Shoots and the deer just flails more. Shoots again, and again until the mag is empty. I end up cutting its throat with my pocket knife. .25 literally bounced off

zb338 writes:

There is a story about a barber in New Jersey. Some "perp" came in his barber shop and
held him up with a .25 auto. The barber told him to "beat it". The "perp" emptied his magazine
into the barber. The barber beat on the "perp" until he almost killed him. The barber healed
up nicely. The "perp" went to the hospital for quite some time then jail for a long time.

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This has little to do with self-defense from criminal attack, the subject of the thread.

Imagine the scenario with the pistol in the barber's hand instead. I see it as "barber opens fire and one of three things happens: perp flees, perp is disabled and unable to continue attack, or perp surrenders", any of which eliminates any further threat to the barber.

I bought the little Colt .25 ACP out of curiosity, to fill out the family, and for a possible backup role.

Apart from anything else, it did not fit in my hand and was wildly inaccurate.
I had no confidence in it and it seemed pointlesss so I sold it and bought a Sig P238.
No regrets.

I don't know about 380s being as small as 25s.

denton said:

I don't know about 380s being as small as 25s.

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Seecamp. 25, 32 and 380 are the same and very tiny.

Something vexes thee?
I too was a cop and though it's true that any gun CAN kill, with handguns it's all about placement, angle (penetration) and luck (opportunity?).
I was shot by a .25acp, not point-blank but a ricochet to my unprotected stomach just below the belly button. It hurt (stung really), and I have no doubt that if it wasn't for the ricochet it would have penetrated and probably would have killed me if left untreated or if it hit my spleen. Having said that, I don't think it would have stopped the fight in me.
I do know of a case where a gas station attendant in the 70's defended himself successfully with a 25 acp, not only killing the perp but it was also a one stop shot (head shots tend to do that).
On another occasion we were taking fire from a guy with a 9mm (rural area) about two blocks away (using city blocks as a measurement) and yes, I was young and invincible (dumb?) and I didn't duck or use cover believing that only a lucky shot would hit me (which it didn't).
It's one thing to be an expert hitting paper at 25 yards and a whole different story hitting a moving target at 7. I certainly wouldn't advocate that a 25 acp was anybody's first or fifth choice for SD if for no other reason than the moving target is hard enough to follow with a full sized service weapon, never mind some tiny gun with useless sights and a lethargic round that may get stopped by a wallet.
So I disagree with you, but agreeably.

Unkei said:

OK...I’ve had it!
Everywhere you look on the God, (Or Gore Given Internet!), mouse gun calibers, in particular the 25 acp...is talked about as just pissin a perp off if you shoot him with it! OMG...enough! I was an LEO in a large metropolitan area for 36 years...part of that time as a detective. I spent many hours in the morgue..and can tell you from ACTUAL experience that small calibers can...and will do the job. I call BS on the apocryphal tales of small calibers just irritating the perp! Sure..if you knew you were going to war..so to speak..a larger caliber means a bigger hole! As for stopping power from ANY handgun caliber..it is pretty much a myth. If you need real stopping power..DON’T use a handgun of any caliber. Use a 12 guage or a 50 BMG! Otherwise, its all about shot placement and familiarity with your platform of choice! Do not for one minute believe that a 45 acp will blow a mans arm off at the elbow, or that a one shot stop with any handgun caliber is the norm! It just ain’t so!!! Buy the weapon you’re comfortable with and become more than proficient with it. Your efforts will be more than amply rewarded! Get over the caliber wars crap! Just do your due diligence, practice and train! Now..I know this post is bound to start a flame war...So Be It! But I speak from many years of REAL EXPERIENCE..and not from internet expertise! Let’s get real here..and understand the limitations of any handgun platform for self defense. Nothing in ANY handgun caliber is a magic solution to an SD situation...PERIOD! Feel free to flame me here..I expect it! But don’t let internet EXPERTS give you false..(bottle) courage! It just ain’t realistic!
Cheers,
Unkei

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Unkei said:

OK...I’ve had it!
Everywhere you look on the God, (Or Gore Given Internet!), mouse gun calibers, in particular the 25 acp...is talked about as just pissin a perp off if you shoot him with it! OMG...enough! ...

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Okay, so you've had it (we got that) ... but what on earth precipitated this rant? Certainly on this forum, not a lot of recent conversation about how ineffective the .25 is (pretty much should go without saying), but most here are pretty savvy with regard to how any human could possibly die when shot in the right place with a .22 or .25. I haven't seen much in the way of "caliber wars crap" on the other firearms forums for the past few years, so is there a particular post or place you (OP) can point out so we can get some context on your thread-starter post?

Sure wish the Beretta dolts would bring out the Jetfire .25 again. The new 21s are too big and lame.

Bought a Jetfire .25 about forty years ago. Have had it longer than any other pistol I own. Take it to the range once or twice a year. I can fit it and an extra magazine in an old Velcro top cell phone carrier. I occasionally carry it just cuz I can and because I think it's a neat little set up. Well aware of it's limitations so it's not something I wander to far from the house with.