4473 Military Discharge status question

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CapnMac

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I know, form recent experience that the 4473 Question (g) requires affirming or denying whether the buyer has been dishonorably discharged.
And a "Yes" stops the sale for being a prohibited person.
Shouldn't the DD be in the NICS record database, since that's federal to federal? And not an issues of a State being slow to pass records?
 
The DD should be in the NICS. AFAIK, every DD stems from a court-martial and is felony equivalent. It should be reported by the convicting/sentencing authority.

Federal to federal can be slower, the same or faster than state to state. Each cabinet department can have their own systems, as can agencies within each department.
 
The DD should be in the NICS. AFAIK, every DD stems from a court-martial and is felony equivalent. It should be reported by the convicting/sentencing authority.

Federal to federal can be slower, the same or faster than state to state. Each cabinet department can have their own systems, as can agencies within each department.
I believe it takes a General Court-martial to give a DD. It of course doesn't have to. But a Special Court-martial can not give one it can only give a Bad Conduct Discharge.

The fed regards it as a felony equivalent. How a state regards it is up to the state but I think almost all do.
 
I personally don't know anyone who got out of the military with a dishonorable discharge, let alone anyone who has tried to buy a legal firearm with one.

As it relates to the Texas church shooter they are probably illegal firearms. Or were bought legally through a loophole with how dishonorable discharges are reported to NICS.
 
There are four types of dihscharge Honorable, General, Bad Conduct, and dishonorable (only the latter disqualifies one). Also depending on how the charge was finalized, it may have been plead to something like simple assault (instead of domestic assault). If that's the case then Mr Kelley could honestly say he was never convicted (big difference to being charged and the charge ammended) of DA
 
It should be reported by the convicting/sentencing authority.

Humans are imperfect, mistakes happen, and what should happen is not always what does happen.

I recently saw a submission form for a state court's case disposition database involving a father's conviction for assault on his child; the clerk simply forgot to check the box that would flag the conviction as a "Misdemeanor Crime of Domestic Violence" subject to 18 USC 922(g)(9).
 
Humans are imperfect, mistakes happen, and what should happen is not always what does happen.

I recently saw a submission form for a state court's case disposition database involving a father's conviction for assault on his child; the clerk simply forgot to check the box that would flag the conviction as a "Misdemeanor Crime of Domestic Violence" subject to 18 USC 922(g)(9).
:(
 
There are four types of dihscharge Honorable, General, Bad Conduct, and dishonorable (only the latter disqualifies one). Also depending on how the charge was finalized, it may have been plead to something like simple assault (instead of domestic assault). If that's the case then Mr Kelley could honestly say he was never convicted (big difference to being charged and the charge ammended) of DA

A few more have been added: Other than Honorable and Entry-Level Separation discharges. If anything, those 2 add more ambiguity and murkiness for civilians trying to wade through military paperwork. I made sure before my DD-214 was ever printed that HONORABLE was included for mine. Bad conduct and dishonorable discharges are often used interchangeably.

https://military-law.lawyers.com/ve...ges-and-their-effect-on-veteran-benefits.html
 
I'll watch closely to see how all this shakes out... I was always told that a DD was equivalent to a felony - I know nothing about the legal status of a "bad conduct" discharge but would hazard a guess that it's a misdemeanor equivalent.... Once again I'll wait competent research on this (perhaps over on the legal board).

What is certain, from news accounts (if they're at all accurate) is that this individual gave every sign of being dangerous and a likely person of interest. So far no indication that those who knew him (particularly his own family or in-laws) raised any flags with local or state police regarding him, his weapons, or his threats... If this is so, the point needs to be hammered home that this was actually a preventable tragedy from more than one standpoint.
 
Humans are imperfect, mistakes happen, and what should happen is not always what does happen.

I recently saw a submission form for a state court's case disposition database involving a father's conviction for assault on his child; the clerk simply forgot to check the box that would flag the conviction as a "Misdemeanor Crime of Domestic Violence" subject to 18 USC 922(g)(9).
But when things happen that should not happen, the person responsible should be disciplined. Is that going to happen here? If nor, why not?
 
There are four types of dihscharge Honorable, General, Bad Conduct, and dishonorable (only the latter disqualifies one). Also depending on how the charge was finalized, it may have been plead to something like simple assault (instead of domestic assault). If that's the case then Mr Kelley could honestly say he was never convicted (big difference to being charged and the charge ammended) of DA
Actually there are 5 types of discharges. You probably just overlooked the Undesirable Discharge, which, IIRC is an administrative instrument between
the General and Bad Conduct discharges.
 
A few more have been added: Other than Honorable and Entry-Level Separation discharges. If anything, those 2 add more ambiguity and murkiness for civilians trying to wade through military paperwork. I made sure before my DD-214 was ever printed that HONORABLE was included for mine. Bad conduct and dishonorable discharges are often used interchangeably.

https://military-law.lawyers.com/ve...ges-and-their-effect-on-veteran-benefits.html
Interesting to know. Thanks. I know one fellow who received a GENERAL discharge for marijuana use in basic training. I guess back then there was no "Entry-Level Separation Discharge"... Most of the forms I have filled out ask if you have received "other" than an Honorable Discharge and then please explain. Some just outright ask if you have received a DISHONORABLE DISCHARGE.
 
It would settle some questions over it if we could simply read the statute or regulation that requires it. So far there's been a lot of hand waving in the press over it and nobody can quote it.

Goes to the incident being a mental health issue more than a gun issue. Where is it specified in Code that the shooter wasn't supposed to be able to buy a gun? And, frankly, what difference does it make now? Crims gonna crim, laws only affect the law abiding. In this case even if there was clear language it didn't do one bit of good.

Now, think about that the next time you are pulled over speeding. You saw the sign, you know there is enforcement, yet you still got caught. All the regulatory language and posted signs did nothing. You pressed the pedal down, you evil speeder, ignoring the law and the safety of the public around you. How about three tickets and you bike to work? We can't even get drunks to stop driving, what do we do, cut off their right foot?

Blaming a lack of thru put to stop the shooter from buying a firearm is playing along with the anti gunners. They want to regulate the process so intimately that you will be required to show a certificate of mental stability to purchase one. As long as they avoid jumping onto that band wagon we are better off.

The real problem is a society which incubates a hostile mind to ethical values. We've come a long way since the Supreme Court was packed with liberal politicians who decided God was dead and we couldn't teach our children morals in the schools we were paying for. Look who started this and who's complaining now?
 
A DD can only be given as a result of a General Court Marshal. This can be for a misdemeanor or felony offense, however, DDs are reserved for "felony offenses"...

A BCD can only be give as a result of any type of Court Marshal. A Summary CM conviction is the equivalent of a misdemeanor.
 
Look, this is not some secret ceremony stuff. Get on Google and look up military court-martials and military discharges. Its simple, takes about 2 minutes to look up and read.
 
So now we are deep into a discussion about the 4473 form (ATF), NCIC (FBI), and military judicial proceedings/records, DOD.

It took three years for the VA to make a final determination on a claim I made for a service connected disability with an honorable discharge. The paper that it generated filled up a large file folder. That was only one federal agency. We have three here.

NICS was a grand idea but as pointed out NICS is a failure. Due mostly over the fact that it relies on gov't agencies.......and now the military. That right there will cause a major disturbance in the force. I'll bet we'll have to get NSA and DHS involved here.:uhoh:

My wife was pretty upset about the USAF's dereliction of duty. I had to explain to her that the military runs on different time and moves in a different coordinate system, for starters.
 
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Blaming a lack of thru put to stop the shooter from buying a firearm is playing along with the anti gunners. They want to regulate the process so intimately that you will be required to show a certificate of mental stability to purchase one. As long as they avoid jumping onto that band wagon we are better off.

It's another gov't band aid for a societal compound fracture. :(
 
It took three years for the VA to make a final determination on a claim I made for a service connected disability with an honorable discharge. The paper that it generated filled up a large file folder. That was only one federal agency. We have three here.

I am going on year 7 for my VA claim. Federal government, and especially the military sure loves their paperwork.

The biggest ball dropped here is from the Air Force. The Texas church shooter had numerous issues that would cause red flags that SHOULD have been caught during a 4473 check. But weren't. Because the Air Force didn't submit those records to the FBI. And now a DOD study shows the issue is systemic. This is not a problem with civilian gun control laws. This is a military problem not wanting to share criminal data with civilians.
 
But when things happen that should not happen, the person responsible should be disciplined. Is that going to happen here? If nor, why not?

The enlisted person in charge is possibly a Chief Master Sgt. They all cover for each other. The most that would happen is a letter of reprimand.

It reminds me of the ride tragedy at the Ohio State Fair this last summer. The ride broke and people died and were injured. A State Inspector checked the ride out and approved it for use. No one ever brings that up.
 
The enlisted person in charge is possibly a Chief Master Sgt. They all cover for each other. The most that would happen is a letter of reprimand.

It reminds me of the ride tragedy at the Ohio State Fair this last summer. The ride broke and people died and were injured. A State Inspector checked the ride out and approved it for use. No one ever brings that up.
And that illustrates WHY we have these problems. That Chief Master Sergeant works for an officer -- and that officer should be disciplined. And the State inspector in Ohio should have been fired.
 
What it comes down to is that the military goofed and we (gun owners) are going to pay for it.
 
The Chief Master Sergeant is responsible for notifying NICS ? I thought it would be the presiding judge of the General Court Martial for providing NICS with the name of the person convicted of a Dishonorable Discharge.

What is the procedure for notifying NICS in the military? Who normally notifies NICS in civilian courts? Do they fax over the court proceedings to NICS or just send NICS the name of the person convicted?

I always wondered what the exact process is....
 
The Chief Master Sergeant is responsible for notifying NICS ? I thought it would be the presiding judge of the General Court Martial for providing NICS with the name of the person convicted of a Dishonorable Discharge.

What is the procedure for notifying NICS in the military? Who normally notifies NICS in civilian courts? Do they fax over the court proceedings to NICS or just send NICS the name of the person convicted?

I always wondered what the exact process is....
The point was, the actual transmission of data is probably by a clerk or a low-level person. So the higher ranks will simply say, "He failed to do his job" and never accept responsibility for not supervising.
 
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