Purchasing gun as a Christmas gift
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Yes you can.
If you look at the form 4473, on page 4 of the form, in the instructions to the dealer, the ATF explains this very clearly. If you are buying a gun as a gift for another person, you ARE the purchaser and you fill out the form as though you were buying it for yourself.
Where trouble begins is when someone is paying you or otherwise compensating you to buy a firearm on their behalf. That's a straw purchase.
Handgun or long gun doesn't matter as regards the initial purchase. Now, when you give that firearm to the other person, that's a TRANSFER. All the same rules apply as if you were selling it to them. They must be eligible to possess it. Must be a resident of your state. The transfer must be legal under your state's laws, etc.
If the person is in another state you will have to do the transfer (GIFT) through an FFL. If it's a long gun the person getting the gift can do the transfer at a dealer in either state. If it's a handgun, the transfer must happen in that person's home state.
If you look at the form 4473, on page 4 of the form, in the instructions to the dealer, the ATF explains this very clearly. If you are buying a gun as a gift for another person, you ARE the purchaser and you fill out the form as though you were buying it for yourself.
Where trouble begins is when someone is paying you or otherwise compensating you to buy a firearm on their behalf. That's a straw purchase.
Handgun or long gun doesn't matter as regards the initial purchase. Now, when you give that firearm to the other person, that's a TRANSFER. All the same rules apply as if you were selling it to them. They must be eligible to possess it. Must be a resident of your state. The transfer must be legal under your state's laws, etc.
If the person is in another state you will have to do the transfer (GIFT) through an FFL. If it's a long gun the person getting the gift can do the transfer at a dealer in either state. If it's a handgun, the transfer must happen in that person's home state.
Sam completely covered the ground and provided a definitive answer.
But since this seems to cause a lot of confusion, I'll leave the thread open for a bit if anyone needs clarification.
But since this seems to cause a lot of confusion, I'll leave the thread open for a bit if anyone needs clarification.
Carl N. Brown
Member
The intent of Congress was to prevent prohibited persons from buying guns through a proxy (or strawman); for example, Person A (a person prohibited from receiving, possessing or transferring a firearm) gives Person B (not a prohibited person) money to go buy the gun from a dealer for Person A's use.
The laws and regulations that implement this intent require that the buyer of record on the Federal Form 4473 must be the person actually buying the gun with their own funds for their own personal use.
A recognized legitimate personal use of a firearm is as a bona fide gift to a person who you have no reason to believe is prohibited by federal, state or local law from receiving and possessing a firearm. But it has to be a good faith gift and you cannot gift a gun to a person who you know could not legally buy or own a gun themselves.
You cannot take another person's money and be the buyer of record on the 4473 even if that person could legally buy the gun themselves. That has been a point of confusion, but that point was straightened out years ago.
The laws and regulations that implement this intent require that the buyer of record on the Federal Form 4473 must be the person actually buying the gun with their own funds for their own personal use.
A recognized legitimate personal use of a firearm is as a bona fide gift to a person who you have no reason to believe is prohibited by federal, state or local law from receiving and possessing a firearm. But it has to be a good faith gift and you cannot gift a gun to a person who you know could not legally buy or own a gun themselves.
You cannot take another person's money and be the buyer of record on the 4473 even if that person could legally buy the gun themselves. That has been a point of confusion, but that point was straightened out years ago.
Another way is to give them a gift card/gift certificate for the store and let them buy it themselves.
In some states (like NY), they require that the other person (including the spouse) has to have a pistol permit before they can posses a pistol (and the serial number and description has to be added onto the permit).
Some states also require "Universal Background Checks" check state laws....
In some states (like NY), they require that the other person (including the spouse) has to have a pistol permit before they can posses a pistol (and the serial number and description has to be added onto the permit).
Some states also require "Universal Background Checks" check state laws....
Of course that doesn't matter when:since in that case transfer would have to be by FFL (background check and all).
But it doesn't hurt to remind everyone that the transfer from the gift giver to the recipient needs to comply with applicable law -- whatever that might be under the circumstances.
One practical, vs. legal, suggestion: I wouldn't mention that you're shopping for a gift. My wife was buying me one for an Xmas gift some years ago, and the FFL employees got all excited when she mentioned it was a gift; they weren't familiar with the 4473 instructions I guess.
(Also FWIW, my sense is that many of the state UBC laws exempt spouses and various other close relatives, so if the gift is for a relative check your state's law for the details)
(Also FWIW, my sense is that many of the state UBC laws exempt spouses and various other close relatives, so if the gift is for a relative check your state's law for the details)
But federal law makes no exception for relatives. Therefore, and transfer from a resident of one State to a resident of another, even a close relative, must go through an FFL.
rromeo
Member
The good thing about that is you can flip the page and show them right there.
BATFE said:
CLP
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So, wife buying me a firearm for a present- all okay.
Wife buying me a firearm when I say, "If you get me that LRB M14 then I'll have a contractor renovate your bathroom"....straw purchase?
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Ahhhh, I was wondering if anyone would bring up the knottier questions of straw purchases and fuzzy financial arrangements. Neat!
So basically, yes, there CAN be straw purchases among family members, and some of them are so but are very difficult (and probably not at all in the interests of the ATF) to parse out and prosecute.
Bob has a son, Jimmy. Jimmy says, "Hey Dad, I'd like a Remington 700 in .308 for Christmas." Bob goes and buys that rifle and gives it to Jimmy for Christmas. No straw purchase, everything's fine.
Now if Jimmy said, "Hey Dad, I'd like a Savage 111 in .22-250, and here's $500 for you to go buy that for me." Well, that's clearly a straw purchase. Prosecutable if the pieces fall into place.
But maybe instead Jimmy says, "Hey Dad, I'd like a Winchester Model 70 in .30-'06, and I'll mow the grass every week from April through the end of October for it." The rifle is now given in compensation for valuable labor rendered. Still a straw purchase. The details really matter as to exactly how things happen.
Bob has a wife, Mary. Mary and Bob visit a gun store and then the next week Mary says, "I really liked that S&W Model 10 I saw." Bob goes and buys it for her as a gift. Not a straw purchase.
But Mary says, "Hey Bob, here's $500, go buy me that Colt Detective Special I liked." Straw purchase.
Or Mary says, "Bob, I liked that Glock 17 we saw. I'd really like you to get that for me." Bob goes to the gun shop and buys it for her, using money from a joint account...? There's probably instances where prosecutorial discretion would kick in before the matter was dissected finely enough to answer for sure.
And in fact Bruce Abramski was found guilty of buying a gun for his uncle.
For in depth discussion of straw purchases see:
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Abarmski! That's the guy's name I couldn't remember. These things really do happen! Follow the law.
Skylerbone
Member
Another question if I may; if I wish to gift a pistol to someone in Illinois the law makes clear that transfer must take place at an FFL. When I purchase out of State in Illinois a pistol must be transferred by an FFL to an FFL. What I cannot discern from reading is if I may bring the pistol to the Illinois based FFL or must it be driven across State line by an FFL? The receiver of the gift is legal to own and possesses a FOID Card.
"What I cannot discern from reading is if I may bring the pistol to the Illinois based FFL or must it be driven across State line by an FFL?"
I don't know about IL law, but federal law allows you to deliver the gun to the recipient-state-FFL personally; I've done it a couple of times (to states other than IL).
(Obey the local laws about transport - unlocked, in trunk, etc - whatever they are)
I don't know about IL law, but federal law allows you to deliver the gun to the recipient-state-FFL personally; I've done it a couple of times (to states other than IL).
(Obey the local laws about transport - unlocked, in trunk, etc - whatever they are)
il.bill
Member
You actually bring up three separate issues in that post - the first two can only be addressed correctly if you first clear some things up.
The third issue: "What I cannot discern from reading is if I may bring the pistol to the Illinois based FFL or must it be driven across State line by an FFL?" may not have a simple yet complete answer. If you live outside of the State of Illinois, and IF you may legally possess a handgun, and IF the handgun is legally transported (basically, unloaded and completely enclosed in a gun case or shipping box - transportation of firearms in Illinois is subject to both the laws under the state's firearms act as well as the regulations of the Illinois Department of Natural Resources. I am sorry, but I ran out of time searching for both sets of requirements for legal firearm transportation.), then you as an unlicensed individual "may bring the pistol to the Illinois based FFL". HOWEVER, some FFLs, and not just in Illinois, may choose not to accept a firearm for transfer from an unlicensed individual, whether in state or from out of state. Many will, with proper documentation, accept a firearm transfer from a non FFL. You, or the recipient, would need to verify that with the local FFL who would do the transfer.
Zaydok Allen
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Sam covered the legality of it well. The following are just my opinions and personal practices.
I have gifted two firearms, and sold one gun to my father. All three were hand guns. One was a LC9S that I gave my girlfriend for her birthday about a year and a half ago. The second was a coworker of 12 years who was essentially my mentor for the first third of my career. In both cases I purchased the gun without hiccup and I KNEW that both individuals were legally allowed to own a firearm. My girlfriend had a valid concealed carry permit, and I had been with my coworker before when he purchased a firearm.
The question of private transactions came up in a class I took to obtain my nonresident Utah concealed carry permit. The instructor, who was a licensed attorney, made the recommendation that if you are engaging in a private transfer, you better
A. Know that person very well, and know that without a doubt they are legally allowed to own a firearm.
B. If you don't know the person, think about the ramifications if you sell to a person prohibited from ownership. The instructor recommended never conducting a transfer to someone you don't know unless they can show you a valid state CC permit, that matches their driver's license.
In the case of my father, again I knew that he was legal to own a gun, but he is not a resident of the state I live in. As a result, he handed me cash for the gun and then we went to the local Cabela's and had them ship it to a Cabela's near him. It worked out fine. The transfer fee is all that was a bit of a bummer.
My friends and family understand my reasons. I don't really sell to private parties I don't know. I have this policy because I AM somewhat legally ignorant on state laws regarding private transfers, and don't wish to waste any time looking it up, or waste any energy worrying that I've screwed it up. It'll cost me a few bucks over my lifetime I'm sure, but it's a very small investment in peace of mind in my case to worry about a little money.
I have gifted two firearms, and sold one gun to my father. All three were hand guns. One was a LC9S that I gave my girlfriend for her birthday about a year and a half ago. The second was a coworker of 12 years who was essentially my mentor for the first third of my career. In both cases I purchased the gun without hiccup and I KNEW that both individuals were legally allowed to own a firearm. My girlfriend had a valid concealed carry permit, and I had been with my coworker before when he purchased a firearm.
The question of private transactions came up in a class I took to obtain my nonresident Utah concealed carry permit. The instructor, who was a licensed attorney, made the recommendation that if you are engaging in a private transfer, you better
A. Know that person very well, and know that without a doubt they are legally allowed to own a firearm.
B. If you don't know the person, think about the ramifications if you sell to a person prohibited from ownership. The instructor recommended never conducting a transfer to someone you don't know unless they can show you a valid state CC permit, that matches their driver's license.
In the case of my father, again I knew that he was legal to own a gun, but he is not a resident of the state I live in. As a result, he handed me cash for the gun and then we went to the local Cabela's and had them ship it to a Cabela's near him. It worked out fine. The transfer fee is all that was a bit of a bummer.
State laws always muddy the waters. My general policy is to hell with saving the transfer fee. I don't care what the state laws do or don't say. I want a paper trail of a legal transfer, and to "avoid any imperial entanglements" I will always ship FFL to FFL, in an interstate sale, even if I can legally bring that weapon to the state of the purchaser, and I can easily travel to and hand it to an FFL dealer. I just ship it. I'll even offer to pay the transfer fee to make the recipient happy.
My friends and family understand my reasons. I don't really sell to private parties I don't know. I have this policy because I AM somewhat legally ignorant on state laws regarding private transfers, and don't wish to waste any time looking it up, or waste any energy worrying that I've screwed it up. It'll cost me a few bucks over my lifetime I'm sure, but it's a very small investment in peace of mind in my case to worry about a little money.
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Question: Some folks have "hidden" pasts. Perhaps difficult to hide if a family member, but not impossible. More likely, perhaps a boyfriend or girlfriend who doesnt know fully about their partner's past. So, how does one know for sure and what are the legal implications? Plus, the partner could be lying.
This is hypothetical and not an actual situation, past or present amongst anyone I know personally, but it seems to me this could happen quite easily.
This is hypothetical and not an actual situation, past or present amongst anyone I know personally, but it seems to me this could happen quite easily.
As always, state law may vary, but federal law does not require you to investigate the person who will be receiving the gift, nor does it hold you responsible for transferring a firearm to someone whom you believed was a legal recipient but who had a hidden past you were unlikely to know about.
You can't transfer possession to someone if you believe or have reason to believe that they are a prohibited person. If you don't believe, and have no reason to believe, they are a prohibited person then you haven't broken any laws even if they are actually a prohibited person. Does that mean you're home free? Not entirely. If it comes out later that the person was a prohibited person and it seems reasonable that you should have known it, even if you didn't, you might have to answer some hard questions if it ever becomes an issue.
bikemutt
Member
My wife and I had a somewhat interesting circumstance at a pawnshop a few years back. We were instate but out of town, vacationing a bit. Cutting to the chase she found a piece of jewelry she couldn't pass on, I found a S&W 19 I wasn't leaving without. It was that time of year for gift giving; she said she'd buy me the gun, I insisted on buying her the ring. This was all out in the open, no whispers. We frequently buy things for each other and square up later.
When it came time to pay we tendered a credit card with the more generous rewards points which happened to be my card. As one clerk busily tendered to ringing us up and another clerk set about calling in the BG check, the lightening bolt hit me.
I asked the pawnshop owner if he was OK with me paying for a gun when my wife filled out the 4473. If you've ever seen the movie "The Exorcist" where actress Linda Blair rotates her head 360 degrees on-axis, that's the initial reaction I got.
I told the shopkeep all options were available; we could use my wife's card to pay the bill, we could shred the 4473 and I'd fill one out. We could split the transaction into two transactions.
It's been long enough ago I really don't remember how we finally sorted it out. I know we left with the gun and the ring. What I do recall is thinking to myself at the time, no matter how cozy things looked, I did not want to be party to a straw purchase, accidentally or otherwise.
Since then I've bought my wife guns as gifts and vice versa. Our policy is to always inform the FFL what our intent is, keep it lawful, live to shoot another day.
When it came time to pay we tendered a credit card with the more generous rewards points which happened to be my card. As one clerk busily tendered to ringing us up and another clerk set about calling in the BG check, the lightening bolt hit me.
I asked the pawnshop owner if he was OK with me paying for a gun when my wife filled out the 4473. If you've ever seen the movie "The Exorcist" where actress Linda Blair rotates her head 360 degrees on-axis, that's the initial reaction I got.
I told the shopkeep all options were available; we could use my wife's card to pay the bill, we could shred the 4473 and I'd fill one out. We could split the transaction into two transactions.
It's been long enough ago I really don't remember how we finally sorted it out. I know we left with the gun and the ring. What I do recall is thinking to myself at the time, no matter how cozy things looked, I did not want to be party to a straw purchase, accidentally or otherwise.
Since then I've bought my wife guns as gifts and vice versa. Our policy is to always inform the FFL what our intent is, keep it lawful, live to shoot another day.
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Under federal law, it is perfectly legal to purchase a firearm as a gift as long as you have no reason to believe the the intended recipient is a prohibited person and as long as it is a true gift (you're not being reimbursed). https://rocketffl.com/firearms-as-gifts/
Theohazard
Member
Also (as stated previously in this thread), the gift giver and the gift recipient must both be residents of the same state, and the transfer must happen in that state (same as any private transfer not involving an FFL).
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