When you have no plan

I live in a safe town so I

  • Let anyone in my household answer the door

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Answer the door myself but don't have a plan

    Votes: 4 7.3%

  • Answer the door myself but am somewhat prepared

    Votes: 10 18.2%

  • I'm always friendly but always armed and prepared

    Votes: 41 74.5%
  • Total voters
    55
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george29

george29

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Sep 23, 2006
Messages
1,670
I was watching the Cheshire Murders on YouTube after one of our members here recommended it on another thread (I can't remember who it was but thank you).
He highly recommended it and was right, it is a well done documentary.
Many thoughts went through my head as I watched it but the main one was the total lack of mindset that crime can happen anywhere and the father mindlessly owns the door to two people who will change the towns life forever, but mainly, his life.
I'm not here to criticize him but to learn from his mistake. I added the poll for anyone who wants to test their own mindset. You can change your vote if after watching the film decide you might have made the wrong choice.
I recommend watching it and taking any lesson pertinent to you.
This is not criticism of anyone, rather, a horrible lesson that hopefully no one has to learn on their own. Have a plan, be prepared, take reasonable caution, and maybe answer the door with a J frame in your pocket.
Here is the link:



If it doesn't work just type in Cheshire Murders. Run time 1:52

(Hopefully adding a link isn't against the rules)
 
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Mikhail Weiss asks:

Summary?
Click to expand...

The Cheshire murders took place in an "exclusive", upscale neighborhood in Connecticut. In a nutshell, two murderous felons gained entry to the apparently-unsecured home of Dr. William Petit and his family one morning in 2007. Entry was made easy as Dr. Petit was found asleep outside on the front porch, where he was taken at gunpoint. What was intended as a burglary escalated into the forcible rapes of Mrs. Petit and the couple's two daughters. Mrs. Petit was also forced to drive to and from a bank to withdraw a substantial sum of money. All members of the family were attacked; only Dr. Petit survived, escaping the home, which was then set ablaze, to a neighbor's to call for help.

It goes much deeper than that; the whole ordeal lasted some seven hours.
 
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This sort of thing is very problematic to try and take valid lessons from. On the very thinnest face of it, we could say sure, don't answer the door, or don't let anyone else answer the door, or don't answer the door without a gun in your hand.

But, while in some cases/places maybe that's the best policy, the Petits' case probably doesn't really hinge on that. Maybe the answer is don't nap on your front porch. Well...sure, though that's one of life's little pleasures for many, and it's probably not really supportable to say that napping on your front porch in a nice neighborhood is a particularly dangerous habit.

With two such incredibly viscous and armed murderers involved, it isn't clear what level of defensive posture would have truly prevented this crime. Maybe Dr. Petit could have fought them off. Maybe not.
I would certainly say having a gun in your pocket -- even while napping on the porch -- could have made the outcome different. Might have, anyway. Can we (and is it reasonable to) always have a gun on us at all times, everywhere? Can we try to live in "Condition Yellow" even in our own homes, when contemplating a relaxing snooze?

The difficulty lies, I think, in looking a very unusual and very horrifying situation and then molding your life in preparation for that possibility.
What are reasonable precautions to take -- broadly helpful in preparing for, resisting, or eluding a wide variety of threats? Are there ways to live a good and pleasing life (i.e. be able to take a nap on your porch if you want to) without being unreasonably vulnerable to foreseeable threats? Are there ways to make your home an undesirable, "hard" target, and still enjoy the trappings of a "successful" suburban life?

Would any of the things we're willing to change about our lives have prevented this from happening to Dr. Petit's family?
 
I live in the metro,and trust no one,you bet when I answer my door I have a 380 or .38 spl derringer, in my pocket.
 
Sam1911 said:
This sort of thing is very problematic to try and take valid lessons from. On the very thinnest face of it, we could say sure, don't answer the door, or don't let anyone else answer the door, or don't answer the door without a gun in your hand.

But, while in some cases/places maybe that's the best policy, the Petits' case probably doesn't really hinge on that. Maybe the answer is don't nap on your front porch. Well...sure, though that's one of life's little pleasures for many, and it's probably not really supportable to say that napping on your front porch in a nice neighborhood is a particularly dangerous habit.

With two such incredibly viscous and armed murderers involved, it isn't clear what level of defensive posture would have truly prevented this crime. Maybe Dr. Petit could have fought them off. Maybe not.
I would certainly say having a gun in your pocket -- even while napping on the porch -- could have made the outcome different. Might have, anyway. Can we (and is it reasonable to) always have a gun on us at all times, everywhere? Can we try to live in "Condition Yellow" even in our own homes, when contemplating a relaxing snooze?

The difficulty lies, I think, in looking a very unusual and very horrifying situation and then molding your life in preparation for that possibility.
What are reasonable precautions to take -- broadly helpful in preparing for, resisting, or eluding a wide variety of threats? Are there ways to live a good and pleasing life (i.e. be able to take a nap on your porch if you want to) without being unreasonably vulnerable to foreseeable threats? Are there ways to make your home an undesirable, "hard" target, and still enjoy the trappings of a "successful" suburban life?

Would any of the things we're willing to change about our lives have prevented this from happening to Dr. Petit's family?
Click to expand...

Thanks for saying this. It’s easy, with unconscious hindsight bias, to think we “learn from this case,” and won’t make the same mistakes. But the truth is that on occasion I relax on my (unsecure) back deck with headphones and close my eyes. I swim at the beach with no weapon. I don’t always carry while running while running on remote trails or in town. These things greatly enrich my life; I’m better off than when the mindset from Afghanistan followed me home.

Their case (I’m familiar from having read it, but don’t have time to watch the video) is a good cautionary tale, but to me the lesson isn’t to live with gun in hand so much as to be cautious of strangers from the get-go.

I say this a person for whom eliminating all risk isn’t the goal, but eliminating some risk while still living out a life of exploration, travel, and new experiences. Others’ mileage will vary.
 
If UPS, the Postal Service, and Jehovas can knock at the door, so can anyone else. The nicer the neighborhood, the criminal perceives the nicer the stuff, and more (possible) cash. If you have ever seen anyone maxed out on meth or heroin, you realize that there are a lot of wild animals roaming the streets that look like human beings. Your life means nothing to them.
 
Kleanbore said:
You would plan on drawing your firearm from your pocket and shooting back after you have been shot?

Might there be a better strategy?
Click to expand...
I did not interpret your post as meaning the shooter HIT me, only that s/he SHOT. But the only change to my answer is probably what to do AFTER shooting back.

If I'm the protagonist, it's a pretty unlikely scenario in the first place, typically there would be some type of interaction before a person at the door would start shooting. It's not like I'm a dope dealer, gambler, person dating a gangbanger's former love interest, or etc.
 
Kleanbore said:
You would plan on drawing your firearm from your pocket and shooting back after you have been shot?
Click to expand...
Repeatedly. Because I am the first line of defense in my house, I am also the last. My 32 year old stepson with cerebral palsy is immobile. To buy time for my wife to arm and barricade, I might take some rounds. I would seek cover as possible, and medical attention after the smoke clears. I may survive, but the attackers will pay dearly.
 
JeffG said:
If UPS, the Postal Service, and Jehovas can knock at the door, so can anyone else. The nicer the neighborhood, the criminal perceives the nicer the stuff, and more (possible) cash. If you have ever seen anyone maxed out on meth or heroin, you realize that there are a lot of wild animals roaming the streets that look like human beings. Your life means nothing to them.
Click to expand...
I've posted many times here that mentally disturbed or drug-addled people are IMO the most likely threat around here; second would be a BG who just committed whatever and is trying to hide from LE.
 
We have discussed this subject a number of times at length over the years.

Most trainers, law enforcement officers, and thinking persons will agree that anyone who goes to the door to answer it with gun in the pocket, in the holster , or even in the hand has selected a very poor defensive strategy indeed.

When you open the door to look, you have presented yourself as a target to any person or persons who may be out there. You may or may not be able to able to get your weapon into action, and even if you can can, you may find it far less than sufficiently effective.

If you go to the door, present yourself as a victim, and find that you need a weapon, you have made a series of critical errors. Your gun may deter and it can harm, but it cannot protect you from blades, guns or bludgeons, and it is certainly unlikely to stop an attacker who is direly ingot front of you anywhere nearly as quickly as we see portrayed on screen fiction. And there could well be one visible and two standing just out of sight.

What to do?

Let's start it with what not to do.
  • Do not place yourself directly in front of the door if there are indications of danger.
  • Do not open the door unless you are confident that no one there may act with threat or violence.
That leads us to what to do.
  • Stay in in a safe place unknown to your callers until you have assessed the risk as minimal.
  • Open the door only when you can tell who is outside.
How can you know? I can see everyone and everything on the porch and in the driveway on my cell phone without getting out of my chair.

This last Saturday, QVC sold 140,000 devices that will allow people to do that and to hear and speak through the door--in one day. It can detect motion.

I carry a gun all the time, but I would never rely upon it when answering the door.

Leave that to the realm of fantasy.

There is a good Ayoob video tutorial on the subject.
 
Kleanbore said:
We have discussed this subject a number of times at length over the years.

Most trainers, law enforcement officers, and thinking persons will agree that anyone who goes to the door to answer it with gun in the pocket, in the holster , or even in the hand has selected a very poor defensive strategy indeed.

When you open the door to look, you have presented yourself as a target to any person or persons who may be out there. You may or may not be able to able to get your weapon into action, and even if you can can, you may find it far less than sufficiently effective.

If you go to the door, present yourself as a victim, and find that you need a weapon, you have made a series of critical errors. Your gun may deter and it can harm, but it cannot protect you from blades, guns or bludgeons, and it is certainly unlikely to stop an attacker who is direly ingot front of you anywhere nearly as quickly as we see portrayed on screen fiction. And there could well be one visible and two standing just out of sight.

What to do?

Let's start it with what not to do.
  • Do not place yourself directly in front of the door if there are indications of danger.
  • Do not open the door unless you are confident that no one there may act with threat or violence.
That leads us to what to do.
  • Stay in in a safe place unknown to your callers until you have assessed the risk as minimal.
  • Open the door only when you can tell who is outside.
How can you know? I can see everyone and everything on the porch and in the driveway on my cell phone without getting out of my chair.

This last Saturday, QVC sold 140,000 devices that will allow people to do that and to hear and speak through the door--in one day. It can detect motion.

I carry a gun all the time, but I would never rely upon it when answering the door.

Leave that to the realm of fantasy.

There is a good Ayoob video tutorial on the subject.
Click to expand...

First of all, my response was "shoot back through the door", I did not say to open the door. Big difference.

Secondly, personally I have security doors on all my exterior doors. I can open the wood door to talk to whomever is outside with no risk of them getting in. I am a big fan of these. A security door cannot be kicked in or pried off, it is perforated steel with bars in front, with its own steel frame, and a keyed deadlock as well as a lock in the knob. (Go to Home Depot or Lowe's website, type "security doors" in the search box to see what these look like.) An advantage of a security door over any type of intercom setup is that a security door works without an internet connection, functioning cellphone, or even electricity or batteries.
 
george29, when you post polls like this you really need to include a "None of the Above (explain in your post)" option because none of your four options applies to me. Further, the premise of the question, "I live in a safe town" may not apply to your audience.

I am on the verge of retirement and split my time between my house in a very safe suburb of Dallas and a farm in rural Arkansas where, as near as I can tell, pretty much everyone has gotten involved in the drug trade since the local factories sent all the jobs to Vietnam and Bangladesh; it is very unsafe, on a per-capita basis, one of the nearby towns has more murders than Chicago. Two very different environments calling for two very different protocols.
 
Jeff White said:
Completely depends on how it's installed.
Click to expand...
Of course, for the prying off part. (Not sure how the installation methodology would affect kick-in-able-ness.) I hereby add "and professionally installed". :)

I just checked a typical one on the Lowe's website to see if they indicate the length of the screws, did not see that. The details do include "tamper-resistant pre-hung hinges" and "One-way installation screws around door frame help prevent door removal from outside.".
 
george29 wrote:
When you have no plan
Click to expand...

Not really applicable since I always have a plan when I go to encounter a stranger.

At my house in the suburbs, I have a window that I can look out of that gives me a complete view of the front porch, so I know before going to the door what my plan will be and what I think I need to have available when I answer the door.
 
old lady new shooter said:
First of all, my response was "shoot back through the door",
Click to expand...
"Shoot back" indicates that you are already in a wold of hurt. Best to avoid that.

hdwhit said:
I have a window that I can look out of that gives me a complete view of the front porch, so I know before going to the door what my plan will be and what I think I need to have available when I answer the door.
Click to expand...
That'll work.
 
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