Is it legal to defend a property of theft?

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Agreed Sam. Someone posted if they encountered someone in their house they would let them go bc the police are ONLY 5 minutes away. Just wanted to clarify that bad things can happen if someone was brave enough to enter your house with people home.The time for talking has passed at that point.
 
Not a good idea to make too many decisions (or especially public and enduring pronouncements) about what you'd do to anybody found wherever. You just can't know what the totality of circumstances will tell you is the proper course of action in a given situation.

(I mean, in that case, if you've got a gun held on this guy from 10' away, and he's got both hands full of television set, and you're watching him back out the door, killing him would be hard to justify. He doesn't have means to injure you at that moment.)

And please keep in mind that the provisions granted by every one of the Castle Doctrine laws are rebuttable. They give you a presumption of justification because of a presumption that a lethal threat existed. If the state can make a case that the conditions of a lethal threat did not exist at the moment you pulled the trigger, they can prosecute.
 
You are right about guns. That could change the whole scenario and my thinking on what I might do at that moment.

Just be careful thinking too hard about that. See, the problem is, your legal justification for shooting someone is always PURELY that you're defending your (and/or another's) life right in that instant.

You cannot use lethal force to prevent the theft of an item, no matter how valuable it might be.

Further, you cannot use lethal force because of what someone might presumably do later. You can't shoot someone because they might sell that gun illegally. You can't shoot someone because they (or someone else) might someday rob a bank or kill someone with the gun they stole.

I know there's a temptation to think like the plot to so many of the old Batman TV shows: "Holy Smokes, Robin, if the Joker gets his hands on that canister of dioxin, he'll poison the whole town! We HAVE to STOP him!"

We can't actually proceed like that. Sure, a bad guy may do something bad if he steals a firearm from us. But the only justification for using deadly force is to stop an IMMEDIATE, PRESENT, lethal threat, right now.
 
Just be careful thinking too hard about that. See, the problem is, your legal justification for shooting someone is always PURELY that you're defending your (and/or another's) life right in that instant.

You cannot use lethal force to prevent the theft of an item, no matter how valuable it might be.

Usually, but it may get muddy if someone is trying to steal parachutes in a disabled plane or a defib device when needed for someone in actual cardiac arrest or the epipen when someone is having a life threatening allergic reaction. I prefer not to make overreaching hard and fast rules.

Further, you cannot use lethal force because of what someone might presumably do later. You can't shoot someone because they might sell that gun illegally. You can't shoot someone because they (or someone else) might someday rob a bank or kill someone with the gun they stole.

Again, the exceptions are likely uncommon, but it depends on how imminent the threat is and how much it is presumed that the action may be done vs. having actual reliable information relating to the intent, ability, and opportunity to carry out that imminent threat. If someone steals your gun and you have good reason to believe that they are immediately on their way to a neighbor's house to murder someone there, the threat may be sufficiently imminent enough to act.

"Imminent" does not usually have a rigorous legal definition in terms of seconds. For me, it boils down to how a reasonable man would interpret the available facts. If I'm on the jury, I'd vote to acquit an honest citizen who acted because all the available information indicated that the perp was going to inflict death or great bodily harm sooner than any other action (calling the police) was likely to prevent it. If I vote in the district, I'd vote to remove any prosecutor who brought a case against a citizen using a similar definition of an imminent threat.
 
If someone steals your gun and you have good reason to believe that they are immediately on their way to a neighbor's house to murder someone there, the threat may be sufficiently imminent enough to act.
I tend to doubt that.

In law, imminent peril is "certain danger, immediate, and impending; menacingly close at hand, and threatening".

That is what would justify the use of deadly force to defend oneself or another person, and it applies both to civilians and sworn officers. Police officers have another duty, and the Constitution permits them to employ deadly force under certain conditions of immediate necessity to prevent the escape of a dangerous person, but that's another subject.
 
If someone steals your gun and you have good reason to believe that they are immediately on their way to a neighbor's house to murder someone there, the threat may be sufficiently imminent enough to act.

A far more prudent example is fearing for your own life during the theft of firearms you personally own. For example if you come home and 2 guys have opened your gun safe like a tuna can. They see you and all of a sudden start loading your firearms, that is a pretty immediate threat to life stemming from theft of property.

During a home invasion, it is nearly impossible to determine if the offenders are there just to steal your stuff or do bodily harm to the occupants. Which is why a home invasion is often considered a deadly force incident in most states. As Frank said, there is a ton of grey area on this topic when it comes to different states.
 
If a thief is stealing and/or intentionally destroying property on someone's farm and not breaking and entering a vehicle or structure, how does defending property play out?

First of all let me say I work very hard for the property we own.

Second I have had stuff stolen from us so I know the feeling and how angry it made me.

However property can be replaced and it is probably much cheaper than a good defense lawyer.

My solution for theft is replacement value homeowners insurance. It costs a bit more than the standard homeowners policy but it covers the cost of replacing the stolen items. So if the theft wants the 10 year flat screen TV in my living room he can have it as I will get a new one under my insurance.

But the guns are strictly off limits.
 
. . . You cannot use lethal force to prevent the theft of an item, no matter how valuable it might be. . .
Aside from questions of ethics or morality, from a legal standpoint (This IS the "LEGAL" forum) this isn't universally correct as an "absolute" statement - Texas law allows use of lethal force to prevent theft under some circumstances. See the citations I included earlier in this thread. (Post #19)
 
Aside from questions of ethics or morality, from a legal standpoint (This IS the "LEGAL" forum) this isn't universally correct as an "absolute" statement - Texas law allows use of lethal force to prevent theft under some circumstances. See the citations I included earlier in this thread. (Post #19)

Let's stop this "you can in Texas" nonsense. The circumstances under which the Texas statute permits the use of lethal force in defense of property are so narrow, and the conditions so specific, that for practical purposes one's best course of action is to not use lethal force to protect property.

In this post, another member of this board, Bartholomew Roberts, a lawyer licensed and practicing law in Texas, explains in detail, including citing applicable cases, why you are wrong:
Recently, we had another discussion on use of lethal force to defend property. As usual, the "you can shoot them in Texas!" comment came up. Rather than continue to derail that thread with a discussion of Texas-specific law (since the person asking the question was from Illinois), I thought I would start a separate thread to specifically address Texas law.

First, a little history is in order. I've always wondered about the Defense of Property statutes in Texas since they are more aggressive than most every other state in the union. As it turns out, Texas used to have some fairly restrictive laws concerning use of lethal force in self-defense. In at least one 1979 case, they ruled (under the laws at that time) that a woman being assaulted by her violent ex should have retreated out of her trailer home before attempting to use lethal force. The same court noted however, that had she been defending her property, there may well have been no duty to retreat. So it seems that at least at one time, the Texas defense of property statute was interpreted by courts to apply some of the traditional English common law concept of "Castle Doctrine" to Texans even though the statutes at that time specifically denied it. I would need to do a lot more research to verify that hunch; but that would go a long way in explaining why Texas has a much different outlook on Defense of Property than many states.

OK, let's look at what the current statute on Defense of Property says (note Texas law allows Defense of a Third Person's property (see. Sec. 9.43 of Texas Penal Code) under even more restrictions; but for the sake of this discussion I am limiting it to defense of your own property to keep an already complex subject more simple):

Texas Penal Code said:
Sec. 9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE'S OWN PROPERTY. (a) A person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.

(b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property by another is justified in using force against the other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession and:

(1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or

(2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or fraud against the actor.


Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

(3) he reasonably believes that:

(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

So what conditions do we need to meet in order to claim Defense of Property?

1. You must be in lawful possession of either land or tangible, movable property.
2. You must reasonably believe that force is immediately necessary to terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.
3. You must reasonably believe that the other has no claim of right to the property or that you were dispossessed of the property by force, threat or fraud.

Once these first three conditions are met, you are allowed under Texas law to use force; but not lethal force to defend your property. In order to use lethal force, you must meet those three conditions AND the following conditions:

4. Deadly force must be IMMEDIATELY necessary in order to:
(a) prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime OR
(b) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property;

5. You must reasonably believe one of the following:
(a) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; OR
(b) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury

So once every single one of these conditions has been met, you have a right to use lethal force to defend property in Texas (though it is still possible you may be charged until you can provide sufficient evidence to a jury and/or law enforcement officials that you did in fact meet these conditions).

Now let's look at an example from Texas law. Mr. Jones is the owner of a Laundromat in Texas. When inspecting the Laundromat, he discovers that his machines have been broken into and all of his cash and several parts are missing. He spots the two men he believes did it in the parking lot and confronts them at 2:30p.m. The men state they have no idea what Mr. Jones is even talking about and continue to drink beer without relinquishing the property. Can Mr. Jones shoot them if they do in fact have his property?

1. Mr. Jones was in lawful possession of tangible, movable property (his money) so he appears to meet condition 1.
2. Is force IMMEDIATELY necessary to terminate the other's interference with property? A little gray area here. On the one hand, they have the property; but on the other hand, they are just standing there drinking beer. What is a jury going to say?
3. Mr. Jones appears to have been dispossessed of his lawful property by force or fraud, so he appears to be good for condition 3.
4. Now we are starting to get problematic for Mr. Jones - he is too late to prevent the imminent commission of theft - it has already happened. And the suspects in question are not fleeing immediately after the commission of the crime - they are standing in his parking lot drinking beer. Further, if the crime is theft, it didn't occur during the nighttime since it is 2:30pm. Mr. Jones doesn't meet ANY of the conditions for #4.
5. Could Mr. Jones recover the property by other means? Say by calling the cops on the people standing in his parking lot? Can he reasonably use less force than deadly force without being exposed to death or serious bodily injury? We don't really need the answers to these questions since we already know that Mr. Jones doesn't meet condition 4 and he must meet ALL 5 conditions to be able to use lethal force.

In real life, Mr. Jones did shoot one of the men and claimed self defense as well as defense of property. The trial court refused to even give an instruction on defense of property. He was convicted of aggravated assault and sentenced to eight years confinement. He appealed his conviction to the Houston Court of Appeals (1st Dist.) who upheld the refusal to give a jury instruction on Defense of Property because Mr. Jones failed to meet the conditions we discussed in item #4 above.

In my view, many of the conditions, particularly those in #5, depend on the jury seeing things the same way you do and have a great deal of subjective language. For that reason, I would not recommend using lethal force in defense of property in Texas unless the property is more valuable to you and your family than whatever prison sentence might result. However, if you do decide to take that risk - be sure you understand the necessary conditions and make sure you meet all of them.

As the Jones case shows, small subtleties (Is it day or night? Is the criminal fleeing IMMEDIATELY after the crime?) can make a big difference. Catch a criminal riding down the driveway on your bike at night and shoot him - you have met all of the conditions (assuming the jury agrees with you on #5). Catch the same criminal riding that same bike down a nearby street the next day? He is no longer fleeing immediately after the crime and you may have a problem with using lethal force. Little details like that can make the difference in whether you go to prison or not. So keep them in mind should you chose to rely on Section 9.42 to use lethal force.

Other good reading on the interpretation of Section 9.42 by Texas courts:
Johnson v. State, http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=6384205821863426719&q
Ewing v. State, http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=17609788601322432228&q
Kinback v. State, http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=4171918244666289702&q
......
 
All questions of law aside, when you ask 'can you shoot someone in defense of property', my immediate response is 'why on earth would you WANT to?'

I'm as protective and upright as anyone, but I'm not killing anyone over 'stuff', regardless of what the law will, or will not, allow. If nothing else, it's undertaking an *enormous* financial and personal risk just for 'stuff.' Not smart, IMHO.


Larry
 
This is a topic which has focused my attention a time or two.
I have lived my entire adult life in Texas, and have seen the laws morph and change through the ensuing four decades.

I've always been a bit lassiez faire about belongings; things are replaceable.
But there have been times, living paycheck-to-paycheck, with no savings, where my ride was an absolute lifeline. Without that ride, I'd be jobless, then homeless. Dire straights indeed. Rather focusing to realized one's beat up ride was essential to keeping a roof overhead. Which is chilling stuff to ponder. At a certain level, stealing my ride was threatening my life.
Per Ethos rather than per Legis, though.
That would be as close to considering that aspect as I came, though.
And, luckily, those circumstances changed.
It's muddy ground, you have to be certain it's night; you have to be certain of so many things. Better to not act.

Even better to not make crass generalizations with implied infinitives.
 
OK, let's say that you attempt to detain a burglar at gunpoint, while at the same time calling the police. If the burglar attacks you, it seems you might be justified in shooting him in self-defense. But what if he calmly turns his back on you and walks away. That's where you would not be justified in shooting him to prevent his escape. (Even if he walks away with the loot.) However, if you physically blocked his escape, matters might escalate so that, again, you would have a self-defense situation. Things get murky at this point.

What if the victim is a "60+" senior citizen and the perp is 1/3 the vics age? Then add in some level of physical handicaps (vision, arthritis, mobility, etc.) that limit the vics ability to respond.
Where do you draw the line between "fear for self" and not?
 
There are two situations somewhat involving property (your dwelling) that are specified in the Kentucky self-defense statutes. You are justified in using deadly physical force if (1) someone attempts arson against your dwelling or (2) someone attempts to forcibly evict you from your dwelling. The second one does not include a legal eviction by a landlord or lien holder obviously. The law is specific about it being your dwelling, so it wouldn’t be legal to shoot someone burning down your shed.

No single object I own costs as much as the legal fees I would probably incur for shooting a thief. Moral arguments aside, there’s a powerful financial reason to keep your finger off the trigger.
 
This was fascinating to read from the straight forward query to recent what-ifs scenarios.

If worried about theft, make sure you have insurance and security systems guarding your personal belongings, oh I know uncle Ferd's magic 8-ball can't be replaced but shooting someone to defend it?

As Elkins45 mentioned, not sure spending mega bucks defending myself from some silly small time county prosecutor's life time pipe dream of his most famous case just because the thief turned while I was defending my big screen telly and the bad guy got shot in the side and perished.

So someone broke in the house wants your stuff, tune down your macho testosterone before you hurt someone or yourself and if need be help them for goodness sake ~ seriously. damage is already done as they broke in!

Castle doctrine be darn, holding them at gun point...really!! What if they want to leave...you going to pop them in the back for goodness sake" Put the gun in ready position, maintaining SD posture just in case the stupid intruder decides they want a shoot out at the ok corral situation. FYI, there is a state in the Union where Citizens arrest isn't on the books!
 
coswabbit writes:

So someone broke in the house wants your stuff, tune down your macho testosterone before you hurt someone or yourself and if need be help them for goodness sake ~

I'm not getting this line.. is it mis-phrased? Or are you actually suggesting we help them carry out our stuff, you know, "for goodness' sake?"
 
Further, you cannot use lethal force because of what someone might presumably do later.
In the recent church massacre case in Texas, the good guy shot the perpetrator who had just killed numerous people but was not in that moment doing so, for fear that BG might be headed to the next church over or some other location to continue his rampage. The good guy was widely praised by LE and government officials and is not being prosecuted for anything.
 
Further, you cannot use lethal force because of what someone might presumably do later.
In the recent church massacre case in Texas, the good guy shot the perpetrator who had just killed numerous people but was not in that moment doing so, for fear that BG might be headed to the next church over or some other location to continue his rampage. The good guy was widely praised by LE and government officials and is not being prosecuted for anything.

It depends on what "later" means in context. So in the Texas case, as I understand it, the shooter wasn't at the time he got shot directly engaged in shooting people. However, the totality of the circumstances might well have been such that a reasonable and prudent person would conclude that the shooter was still engaged in his course of violent conduct and was going to continue, right then, to shoot innocent people.

I think what Sam was getting at was the principle that one can't use lethal force to stop someone from carrying out a threat to be acted upon in the future, i. e., the "you'll get yours" sort of thing.

So on one hand, someone says, "I'm going to kill you." and then makes a motion consistent with reaching for a gun. On the other hand, someone says, "I'm going to kill you." and then turns and walks away. In the first case, we have a threat coupled with an overt action reasonably interpreted as a manifestation of an intent to carry out that threat immediately. In the second case, we have a threat coupled with an overt action which appears to be a manifestation of an intent not to carry out that threat immediately. The former can perhaps support a resort to lethal force in self defense, and the latter can not.
 
HankkB wrote:
A few noteworthy tidbits are that Texas' famous "theft during the night" provision isn't quite the carte blanche provision to shoot a bad guy that some people think it is...

Amen.

In fact, Section 9.42, which includes the famous (infamous?) "theft during the nighttime" language has so many elements that must be established for the shooting to be justified, a potential shooter would pretty much need to hold a court hearing before they pulled the trigger to know whether or not their actions were justified. That's certainly not a provision that I would want to be hazarding my life, liberty and retirement savings on when I drew a gun.
 
It depends on what "later" means in context. So in the Texas case, as I understand it, the shooter wasn't at the time he got shot directly engaged in shooting people. However, the totality of the circumstances might well have been such that a reasonable and prudent person would conclude that the shooter was still engaged in his course of violent conduct and was going to continue, right then, to shoot innocent people.

I think what Sam was getting at was the principle that one can't use lethal force to stop someone from carrying out a threat to be acted upon in the future, i. e., the "you'll get yours" sort of thing.

So on one hand, someone says, "I'm going to kill you." and then makes a motion consistent with reaching for a gun. On the other hand, someone says, "I'm going to kill you." and then turns and walks away. In the first case, we have a threat coupled with an overt action reasonably interpreted as a manifestation of an intent to carry out that threat immediately. In the second case, we have a threat coupled with an overt action which appears to be a manifestation of an intent not to carry out that threat immediately. The former can perhaps support a resort to lethal force in self defense, and the latter can not.
I understand what Sam meant and also agree with your examples. I brought up the Texas case to show that there can be an exception to what is commonly understood to be the rule, based on the totality of the circumstances as you write. A similar situation could be for example, a maniac going door to door in an apartment building, methodically shooting inhabitants in each unit. A reasonable person could assume the maniac will continue this pattern and therefore decide to shoot him while he is between doors or in a stairwell.
 
While IANAL, nor do I know the laws in Illinois well enough to discuss them, if somebody is already in my house, more so if they are armed, and, in particular, if they are armed with my guns, I will give them a choice. They can either sit down and quietly wait for the police or they can lie down and wait for the coroner. If they have my guns, I know they are loaded and they are in somebody else's hands, making them a threat to me and others and I would not allow them (thief OR guns) to leave.
 
While IANAL, nor do I know the laws in Illinois well enough to discuss them,...
So it's clear, as you admit, that you really have no information to impart which would help people to understand use-of-force law in Illinois. Your telling us what you would do in a particular situation has nothing to do with what the law is..

So I want to caution readers that this display of bravado can not be understood to be an example of the use of legally justified force:
...if somebody is already in my house, more so if they are armed, and, in particular, if they are armed with my guns, I will give them a choice. ...and I would not allow them (thief OR guns) to leave.
Depending on exactly what happened and how it happened during the encounter hypothesized, the use of lethal force might, or might not, be determined by a court to be justified.

So let's not have any more of this sort of thing. Please everyone, stay on topic and focus on what the law is and how it works.
 
coswabbit writes:

I'm not getting this line.. is it mis-phrased? Or are you actually suggesting we help them carry out our stuff, you know, "for goodness' sake?"

yes...while my statement was partial tongue in cheek, it was partial fact...if it gets the intruder outside of your home where your loved ones are huddled in a room worrying, or alternatively what would you do...pop them so you family has to live that stain on the floor in the house, or to live there when the bad guy's friends or family seek revenge some dark night?
 
nice to see the macho testosterone is still flowing, but please understand one thing in your bravado to use deadly force to defend your property or if you find someone inside your home...

in all 50 states you shoot cuz you think you can and the bad guy becomes deceased...by every state's statutes you have committed a homicide! but, unless the bad guy(s) were egregious while in your home, you have to defend yourself to the judicial system to show the nice investigator(s) it was SD. normally you are jailed until the investigation is over. then the local prosecutor decides if your actions were justified against the state's SD statutes. if so, congrats, but the bad guy's family, friends, gang members, may wish to exact revenge for the deceased.

if you only wound the bad guy, oh dear...was the shooting with malice (remember mouthing off to friends/family/public forums stating you are going to blow anybody away you find in your home - whether your life is in danger or not) or no malice...see my comment right above on investigations, prosecutor, etc. and since the bad guy survived, he will lead his family, friends, gang members to exact revenge for being embarrassed by you.

some states you can't even point a firearm at someone to 'order' them off your property...it is a felony!
 
^^ No, you shoot because you fear for the safety of yourself and those inside for whose safety you have taken responsibility, not "because you think you can", but because you think you must.

No, you are not "normally jailed until the investigation is over." While it does happen, in many states, depending on the apparent clarity of the circumstances, as well as the political environment of that locale, it is not customary to automatically lock up the shooter (for example, less likely in the case of a nighttime shooting of a forced-entry intruder in Texas or Florida than in the same scenario in New Jersey or Maryland.)

It is extremely uncommon for "family, friends, gang members" to "exact revenge" on people who have committed a lawfully-justified shooting of a clear-cut threat. The truth is, those types of people don't give a crap about each other. Further involving themselves in the same situation that got their buddy shot just brings on more unwanted attention. They'll typically disassociate themselves as fast as they can.

I'm not going to empower thugs further, nor will I encourage them to advertise my welcoming of their actions to yet more of them, by "helping them for goodness sake." If an intruder gives me an opportunity to order him out at gunpoint, I may well do just that, but he had better then comply. I'm certainly not going to tie up my gun hand helping carry anything of mine out.
 
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