38 SW break tops for SD ?

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U can hotload that..
Do u make ur own reload or u use magtech too like Kaeto ?
 
U can hotload that..
Do u make ur own reload or u use magtech too like Kaeto ?

Hot-loads are a bad idea in American-made top-breaks- unlike the Webley or Enfield revolvers they will wear badly from a steady diet of heavy loads. I reload my own, but it is within the recommended limits for these revolvers.
 
I know that.talked about it earlier in the thread.
Maybe the term hotload wasn't the right one... anyway.
U can load it hotter than mine for training..
Btw w u say recommendation u mean the low hand of the charge recommended for webleys?
 
?
On my calculator, 40 grains is 2.6 grammes.

Well rereading this,
Im thinking about the recommended charge (0.75 grams) max u can put in the case of BP, its anything but powerful.
Thus using smokeless in a reasonable manner..to increase power.
 
Would hallow points bullets expend at a 750(ish) FPS?
I don't think so but tell me what you think..
It's gotta be a 1000 at least right?
 
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Speer makes a 148gr. Hollow-base wadcutter that runs well in these guns. The hollow base expands to fill the rifling nicely and provides good accuracy. Hollowpoints are a bad idea- if they expand they will probably prevent the round from penetrating as deeply as is needed.
 
Note that Speer load data for the .38 S&W wadcutter says:
Not for topbreaks other than Webley or Enfield.
Seat to crimp in the top lube groove, not flush or in the crimp groove.
 
Oops- I use the Hornady HBWC, seated to the max listed OAL. I don't remember exactly where I got my load data, but over 1000 rounds has produced no issues.
 
Howdy

Smith and Wesson did not recommend shooting their revolvers with Smokeless powder until about 1908, if I recall correctly. Previous to that, the steel, and in some cases iron, they were made from was not rated for Smokeless powder pressures. You can argue until you are blue in the face that modern Smokeless ammo for the old cartridges such as 38 S&W has low enough pressure to be OK in the old guns, but there is a difference between the amount of pressure generated, and how far over time the pressure wave took to peak and fall off. Black powder creates a gentler pressure curve that will not shock the older steel like the sharp pressure curve of Smokeless will. I have quite a few old S&W Top Break revolvers, and I never shoot them with anything but Black Powder. A 38 S&W loaded full of Black Powder was still powerful enough that it was carried by many policemen in the 1890s.

Iver Johnson completely redesigned their line of revolvers around the turn of the Century. They used better steel for Smokeless powder. Iver Johnson also invented the transfer bar to make their revolvers extra safe so they would not discharge accidentally. Iver Johnson had a marketing slogan called Hammer the Hammer showing how safe their revolvers were against accidental discharge.

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There are three ways to identify the Iver Johnson revolvers that were safe for Smokeless powder. The little owl on the grip faced backwards. Underneath the grips the hammer spring was a coil spring. And the bolt engaged the cylinder locking slots along both straight sides.

IverJohnsonHammerless01.jpg





The Black Powder Iver Johnsons had the little owl on the grip facing forward, the hammer spring was a leaf spring, and the bolt only engaged the cylinder locking slots on one side. The hand prevented the cylinder from rolling backwards.

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The only Smith and Wesson Top Break I would consider firing with Smokeless powder is the Perfected Model. This was the last Top Break that S&W designed, it was produced from 1909 until 1920. The unusual thing about the Perfected Model was that they were the only Top Breaks with a thumb latch. In order to open the gun you had to push the thumb latch forward, just like a modern S&W, while lifting the latch at the top of the frame at the same time. Only lifting the latch, or only pushing the thumb latch forward did not allow the gun to open.

Three%20Perfecteds_zpsbo6ntdgw.jpg
 
The same speedloaders that fit my Charter Arms Undercover Southpaw fit my H&R .38 S&W Top Break. So they can be just as fast to reload as any modern revolver.


THANK you! VERY useful tip! I always saw the lack of a fast reload a drawback. Does anyone think the .327 Federal Mag would work?Even with some finagling? Wanted some speedloaders for a Top break, I guess I could strips? Anyone own a Top Break in .32Long? I see them rarely and am,intrigued.
 
I think the Perfected Model is the neatest of the small Smiths. The integral trigger guard and thumb latch are off the .32 Hand Ejector, the barrel very like the .38 Double Action. Trivia: They made a few without the thumb latch.
I do wonder why they brought it out. It is clearly superior to the .38 Double Action but could not compete on price with the second tier guns like IJ and HR, and you would think they could tell the Hand Ejector was the wave of the future. They didn't make a lot or for long, I have read that most of them went to South America. So yours are good catches; especially the long barrel.
 
THANK you! VERY useful tip! I always saw the lack of a fast reload a drawback. Does anyone think the .327 Federal Mag would work?Even with some finagling? Wanted some speedloaders for a Top break, I guess I could strips? Anyone own a Top Break in .32Long? I see them rarely and am,intrigued.

.327 Fed Mag work in what? A topbreak? Aside from the fact that the cylinder is too short for even a S&W Long, it would have to come with a dustpan so you could sweep up the pieces. Finagle what? Nobody is bringing out new top breaks with better steel and stronger latches.

The reason you rarely see a top break in .32 S&W Long is because S&W did not make one. Harrington & Richardson did, as did some of the European copiers, but they seem to be less common. Iver Johnson had something they called the .32 Special.
 
Actually Red Dot was determined to have chamber and down-bore pressure curves virtually identical to Black Powder in testing. You use a lot less of it, of course. Black powder is not in fact 'gentler' than many smokeless powders- it is less efficient and requires greater volume to achieve the same effect as smokeless powders. During the transition to smokeless all guns and cartridges were made for black powder, and manufacturers formulated their loads for use in these guns and cartridges, and countless rounds were used in these guns without ill effect.

The problem wasn't commercial ammunition, it was with individual hand-loaders. Black powder is measured by volume, smokeless by weight. Many hand-loaders did not understand the difference and loaded the new powders the way they had always loaded Black Powder. This will blow up a gun. This problem was common enough that manuals and catalogs of the period warn against it. The other factor is that you cannot 'hot load' with black powder- the case is the size it is because it holds the correct amount of powder; there's no room to add more to make the round 'hotter.' People quickly discovered that they could make hot-loads with smokeless, and these accellerated wear on the gun or, if you go too far. they blow the gun up.

This caused manufacturers to warn people against using smokeless in their older guns- even while maintaining that the guns were 'safe for all commercial loads,' many of which were loaded with- you guessed it- smokeless powder.

As to the common assertion that smokeless powders will 'shock the steel' this is simply not born out either by science or practical experience. The pressure curves of these powders are nowhere near violent enough to cause the steel to fail at the same pressure that is safe with black powder. This would require a high explosive, and no smokeless powder is a high explosive. High Explosives have a propagation rate that exceeds the speed of sound- put a pile of it on the bench and touch a fire to it and it goes 'Bang!' This can shatter steel, and is why 19th century experiments using fulminates as a propellant failed.

I and many others have fired thousands of rounds of smokeless through black-powder era guns with no ill effect on the weapons- there s no reason that a careful and prudent hand-loader cannot use smokeless in these guns and cartridges. However...

No antique firearm should be fired without being examined by a competent gunsmith to insure that it is safe. Also- there is an advantage to shooting black powder in these weapons, that being that if you use the correct grade of powder you cannot fit enough in the case to blow up the gun- you can definitely use too much smokeless. This is definitely an argument in BPs favor. If you have any doubt it is wiser to err on the side of caution.

For myself I will continue to do as I have done, and I have every expectation that I will continue to have the same results I have experienced for years now.
 
Gunsmith David Chicoine was the first I saw to post the theory that smokeless powder had a sharp impulse that wore on the old guns. He attributed that to the increased numbers of stretched frames and broken top latches he had coming in for repair after Cowboy shooting got popular.
I think the reason was that the guns were being shot MORE, not what ammo was used. The No 3 New Model was a popular target gun, but I doubt the small frame top breaks got used much in their day.
 
As usual Mike, u right on target..
:cool:

PS : thanks JOHNSON for those who didn't know..
But personally, I do IMG_20180224_112437.jpg know.:evil:
 
That is a "black powder" Iver Johnson. It does not have the "Hammer the Hammer" transfer bar and is dependent on its rebounding hammer to keep the firing pin off the top round. Some authorities do not consider that adequately safe, and if you listened to them you would be limited to four shots.
 
BTW is it ctg model?
..

Ctg isnt a model, its the abbreviation for the word "cartridge" in the caliber marking.

Re smokeless pressure curves, not all smokeless powders are alike in their pressure curves. It can be correct to say some smokeless has a similar pressure curve as black powder in some applications, but not all. Some are in fact faster, peakier pressure curves. It is possible to make closely pressure performing loads for rifles and pistols with smokeless compared to black, but its not a given that any particular powder will do so.
 
Interesting, I did not know they had made that combination. Doesn't show in the old parts lists I have. Fill it up.

I have a reprint of the 1901 Sears & Roebuck catalog, guns and other sporting goods section.
They list .32 S&W and .38 S&W with both black and smokeless but .32 S&W Long only with black. Now that doesn't mean that .32 S&W Long wasn't being made with smokeless, but it seems odd that it did not get into the Sears catalog along with its natural home, the .32 Hand Ejector.
 
I hear you but I ve only heard recently that wcutter were a good SD round..
On the contrary,I thought it s made for target,precision practice.

Wouldn't be more effective to use a jacketed bullet with a hallow point?
Knowing that we re under 800 per second..
Mike n Jim said no earlier in the thread..
Buffalo bores round might be too high in pressure for break top made b4 1910 or one that's not a webley or Enfield.
Don't u think.
Mine was made at the turn of the xx th..I dont know if it could handle it even though we talking about 2 cylinders max..
It could blow up don't u think?
 
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I think Michael Tinker Pearce has taken the antique top break about as far as one should go in the 21st century.

One of the old time writers, either Elmer Keith or Henry Stebbins, blew the top latch off a top break with the very old .38 S&W Super Police load. I just wouldn't push it.

Otherwise I am pretty much out of ideas, good luck in your efforts.
 
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