Effectiveness of Hardcast

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MidRoad

MidRoad

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Came across this article a few days ago and thought I would share it with you folks. I posted it in another thread,but wanted to make a post to share it so more folks may get a chance to read it . The article is about how Hardcast bullets with a good size meplat can be very effective even at lower velocities. There are a few charts with different velocity figures vs wound channel size. Excellent read and takes a more common sense approach.

While cartridge and firearms design engineers have artfully and successfully delivered a multitude of firearms and cartridges imminently suited to harvesting any game animal on planet earth, yes, there are times that nothing less than a fire-breathing revolver throwing bowling-ball dimensioned projectiles is not only comforting in hand, but imminently necessary. However, for the North American hunter confining his pursuits to the lower 48 states, this type of raw handgun horsepower simply isn’t necessary.

The purpose of this article is not to minimize the recent development of increasingly more powerful handguns and cartridges, but to take an honest and critical assessment of practical handgun hunting needs, and the attributes necessary for reliable, decisive and humane big game harvests.
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http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/61
 
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Catpop said:
Question: Why is not the same boolit just as effective at 7-10 brn vs 18-22?
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Less deformation to allow deeper/ full penetration especially when coming into contact with bone.

Edit to add:

The chart in the article pretty much shows that you don't need a softer material mushrooms to create a good wound channel. A big meplat even at a moderate velocity makes a nice wound channel.

By using a nice hard bullet you don't need to worry about it not reaching vitals as you would a softer bullet that may potentially just "pancake" when hitting a bone. Not saying soft bullets don't work,they've been around forever and get the job done.
 
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Please post pics!!!!

Not disputing this info, just really curious in some actual testing to back this statement up- i.e. pictures of recovered boolits in same mediums -shoulder, rib cage, etc of deer, bear, elk, etc.

I hope to put together some recovered boolit pics this winter. I’ll only be using 6-10 brn wide meplat boolits in white tailed deer. Probably 44 mag, but maybe some 357. I’ll post what pics I get!
 
Catpop said:
Please post pics!!!!

Not disputing this info, just really curious in some actual testing to back this statement up- i.e. pictures of recovered boolits in same mediums -shoulder, rib cage, etc of deer, bear, elk, etc.

I hope to put together some recovered boolit pics this winter. I’ll only be using 6-10 brn wide meplat boolits in white tailed deer. Probably 44 mag, but maybe some 357. I’ll post what pics I get!
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That would be great. I'd like to see your results as well could be very interesting!
 
Bones741 said:
That would be great. I'd like to see your results as well could be very interesting!
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I'd say I can shoot some buffalo bore 44 specials through a few 2x6 stacked together to get an idea of penetration,retention and deformation. But that's not really a great comparision because critters =/= wood . I will post if I can manage a deer with the handgun this year,but I'm hoping not to recover any bullets!:thumbup:
 
Catpop said:
Please post pics!!!!

Not disputing this info, just really curious in some actual testing to back this statement up- i.e. pictures of recovered boolits in same mediums -shoulder, rib cage, etc of deer, bear, elk, etc.

I hope to put together some recovered boolit pics this winter. I’ll only be using 6-10 brn wide meplat boolits in white tailed deer. Probably 44 mag, but maybe some 357. I’ll post what pics I get!
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its hard to recover a hard cast they exit most times. i have seen some that where shot in to elk from chest to rump looks like u can reload it and shot again. even when they hit bone only the tip gets deformed.
 
Bones741 said:
I'd say I can shoot some buffalo bore 44 specials through a few 2x6 stacked together to get an idea of penetration,retention and deformation. But that's not really a great comparision because critters =/= wood . I will post if I can manage a deer with the handgun this year,but I'm hoping not to recover any bullets!:thumbup:
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it may take many 2x6 like 10 or 12 to stop a hard cast. if like to see your test. i shot in to a wood pile most times. a hc 30-30 will exit a 16 inch length of fire wood.
 
The flat-nosed designs like LFNs, WFNs, WLNs (Long Flat Nose, Wide Flat Nose, Wide Long Nose - nomenclature and designs developed by Veral Smith of LBT) were designed to penetrate deeply and create a large wound channel as dictated by the size of the meplat. In order for that nose shape to perform as designed, it needs to maintain its shape or all bets are off. Hence the importance of a harder bullet and not a soft bullet. In my humble opinion, the LBT (real LBT) designs are the best and most well thought-out designs. I have killed piles of game with hardcast flat-nosed bullets and they can be very effective. That said, I draw the line on really big animals as the heavy bone structure can wreak havoc on the integrity of the nose of a cast bullet, even though they have been successfully used on really big critters (by myself as well). For the big stuff I prefer bullets like the Punch or the various monometal flat-nosed designs (Lehigh, CEB, etc.) that are essentially mimicking the flat-nosed bullets we are discussing here, but without the material limitations.

This photo is of two bullets I recovered from a rather larger water buffalo a number of years ago. They made it nearly all the way through, actually poking through the hide on the offside shoulder. These are particularly tough hardcast bullets by Garrett Cartridge. The meplats are smaller than what I typically like, but the alloy is really tough and they hold their shape remarkable well.

DSC_0699.jpg

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These are a few recovered hardcast bullets from our annual bovine bash. The noses are clearly compromised.

IMG_0483.jpg
 
i like doing hard cast more then the sub 20bn bullets because lead is kinda hard around here to fine. most of it u dont know whats really in it u an fill for hardness with your finger nail. hard for me i chow them lol. i powder coat them then size u can run them to almost as fast as normal bullet if u are over say 35 cal.
 
MaxP said:
The flat-nosed designs like LFNs, WFNs, WLNs (Long Flat Nose, Wide Flat Nose, Wide Long Nose - nomenclature and designs developed by Veral Smith of LBT) were designed to penetrate deeply and create a large wound channel as dictated by the size of the meplat. In order for that nose shape to perform as designed, it needs to maintain its shape or all bets are off. Hence the importance of a harder bullet and not a soft bullet. In my humble opinion, the LBT (real LBT) designs are the best and most well thought-out designs. I have killed piles of game with hardcast flat-nosed bullets and they can be very effective. That said, I draw the line on really big animals as the heavy bone structure can wreak havoc on the integrity of the nose of a cast bullet, even though they have been successfully used on really big critters (by myself as well). For the big stuff I prefer bullets like the Punch or the various monometal flat-nosed designs (Lehigh, CEB, etc.) that are essentially mimicking the flat-nosed bullets we are discussing here, but without the material limitations.

This photo is of two bullets I recovered from a rather larger water buffalo a number of years ago. They made it nearly all the way through, actually poking through the hide on the offside shoulder. These are particularly tough hardcast bullets by Garrett Cartridge. The meplats are smaller than what I typically like, but the alloy is really tough and they hold their shape remarkable well.

View attachment 799118

View attachment 799119

View attachment 799120

These are a few recovered hardcast bullets from our annual bovine bash. The noses are clearly compromised.

View attachment 799121
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Thanks Max! Some really good first hand input.

Picked up two of your books, looking forward to the read,gotta finish up six-guns by Kieth first though!
 
I have only recovered a single HC from a .357 mag in a whitetail buck. At 50 yards the bullet was stuck under the skin on the opposite side after a double lung shot. I believe it was a 160 gr keith design.

I have recovered a lot of schrapnel from soft bullets. Hit a rib and it gets wild. I push mine hard and just accept that leading is going to happen. In rifles I like the extreme expansion and even partial fragmentation of a bullet as it does more damage in the chest cavity, but with handguns this is risky as a splintered bullet leaves chunks without much energy to penetrate to anything important. For hunting, it’s hard cast for me. Occasionally jacketed but usually handloaded hard cast.
 
I've been doing some very unscientific testing using the GT Bullets 185gr HC Wide Meplat Hollow Point. First thing I like is stroked with 12.2gr of 2400 they are the most accurate bullet I've tried in my Model 686 with 8 3/8" Barrel. I've used 158gr Hornady XTP and Sierra JHC for Whitetail hunting for years and have no complaints but the GT Hard Cast in my water jug and wet newspaper testing, penetrate as well if not a little better and they create a much larger wound cavity. I know its not a true test especially since most of my expansion and penetration testing was at around 10 yards and I'm too lazy to carry water jugs 50-75 yards to get a comparison at real ranges. Not sure with the loss of velocity what kind of expansion I could expect beyond 50 yards. GT also offers the same bullet in their standard cast at around 11 Brinell and that might wind up being the best for deer. Only trials with real animals will tell the tale for sure. I'll stick with my Solids for hogs, but my deer season will at least begin with the Cast Hollow Point with Wide Meplat. I'll report any results
 
Eddietruett said:
I've been doing some very unscientific testing using the GT Bullets 185gr HC Wide Meplat Hollow Point. First thing I like is stroked with 12.2gr of 2400 they are the most accurate bullet I've tried in my Model 686 with 8 3/8" Barrel. I've used 158gr Hornady XTP and Sierra JHC for Whitetail hunting for years and have no complaints but the GT Hard Cast in my water jug and wet newspaper testing, penetrate as well if not a little better and they create a much larger wound cavity. I know its not a true test especially since most of my expansion and penetration testing was at around 10 yards and I'm too lazy to carry water jugs 50-75 yards to get a comparison at real ranges. Not sure with the loss of velocity what kind of expansion I could expect beyond 50 yards. GT also offers the same bullet in their standard cast at around 11 Brinell and that might wind up being the best for deer. Only trials with real animals will tell the tale for sure. I'll stick with my Solids for hogs, but my deer season will at least begin with the Cast Hollow Point with Wide Meplat. I'll report any results
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Can you post a photo of this bullet? Meplat typically denotes a flat nose surface. I would love to see it. Thank you sir!
 
MaxP said:
Thank you sir!
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Believe it or not, the reason I started trying out the GT Bullets is they were so darn good looking in the pictures on their website! The other thing I liked immediately was they offer their bullets in 100 packs. Obviously more expensive than bulk, but you don't wind up with a bunch of unused bullets that don't work out. Initially I ordered 100 each of the 130gr HP, 145gr SWCHP, 160gr Keith Style HP and 185gr Wide Meplat HP. Tried to make a SD Load sort of a FBI Type with the 130gr and the 145gr both with 5.2gr of Universal. The 130gr was a huge disappointment. Penetration was fine, but absolutely no expansion. I think the rounded nose contributed to this but not sure. The 145gr SWCHP performed great! It came close to matching the Remington Golden Saber +P that is my carry load. In water jugs, penetration was equal and expanded to around .60 inch. It has a thin HP design and would make a great defense bullet. Have not tried the 160gr Keith Style, but the real surprise was the 185gr Wide Meplat HP. Loaded with 12.2gr of 2400 which is the same load I use for Hogs with the 180gr Coated Bullet from Missouri, the GT Bullet is the Most Accurate Magnum Bullet I've ever shot period. My max range is 80 yards and off a good rest out of a Model 686 with 8 3/8" Barrel with a Simmons Red Dot Scope, I have no problems shooting sub 4" groups. Haven't chronographed the load, but I get around 1250fps using the 180gr Missouri Bullet, so I'm guessing around 1200fps. I get no leading. I haven't tested expansion, but I'm thinking it would make a great deer load. I'll stick to the solids for Hogs. I plan to pick up some gallon water jugs next trip to Walmart and compare the expansion to the Hornady XTP and Sierra JHC which have been my go to deer rounds. I'd like to see the expansion comparison at around 50 yards.
 
S&W in .45 Colt. 255 hard cast with flat point loaded to 900 FPS. Whitetail at 50 yards hit just behind front shoulder angling toward me. Complete penetration with exit behind ribs on off side. Meat in the pot. 'Nuff said.
 
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